Is Maya overpowered, or are people just really good?

[GreekIrish]

So I have been playing a lot of multiplayer lately as I got a little bored of single player, and I noticed something. Every single match that I play against Maya, Maya dominates. I'm not even exaggerating either. There is not a single game that I have played against Maya where they aren't doing way better than every one else, and don't have a tech lead of at least 7% over everyone else by the time of the Industrial Era.

This isn't just be being upset I lose to Maya, because I'm a pretty average player, and I do well sometimes, but it just seems like any one who plays as Maya does extremely well for themselves, and I just can't seem to do better than them.

 

[Human Crouton]

I don't think the Maya are overpowered. I just think they are easy for all skill levels to play.

+2 science and +2 faith from such an early building makes life easy for even a novice player. Add a free great person of your choice to that, and you've got yourself easy mode for the first few eras.

But while these are nice, they aren't going to stop a good player from beating you, and they aren't going to keep a novice player going strong throughout the game. The Mayan's party doesn't last forever.

 

[HelloGoodbye123]

heres what you do:

get that pyramid as soon as possible, you want the "+2 science from trade routes pantheon"
make 15 cities
your religion should be

founder - ceremonial burial ( +1 happiness for every city following this religion)
follower - pagodas (+2 happy, +2 culture + 2 faith)
follower - Mosques (+1 happy +2 culture, +3 faith)
enhancer - Religious texts (Religion spreads faster)

first thing you want is pyramid in all cities, once the pyramid is done start building archers in each city (for defense purposes, going this expansionary can make other players think you are defenseless)
get those workers fast and build roads, go liberty branch.

once the composites are done start building colliseum in all your cities. also by now you should start getting A LOT of faith and science and gold.

Use:

Faith: enhance religion, and afterwards, set religion to automatically build pagodas, then mosques and finally go rationalism and save faith for scientists.

Science: you want theology! you also want the tech that makes crossbows

Gold: use gold to upgrade your archers to crossbows for ultimate defense.

After this, your cities should easily be growing because pagodas/mosques/ceremonial burial/liberty and colloseums.. monstrously increase your happiness. you could also aim for some happiness wonders. and dont forget your religion will be so powerful it will spread rapidly to city states and other civs, adding another happiness per city!

Your score will be double if not tripple than other players and you will be in such a tech lead. Also, lets not forget those nice great ppl usually try to start with a scientist and plot him down by making an academy

hope i cleared this out

 

[RealHuhn]

[...]

Your score will be double if not tripple than other players and you will be in such a tech lead. Also, lets not forget those nice great ppl usually try to start with a scientist and plot him down by making an academy

hope i cleared this out

Why do you always talk like that?
No, you won't have a bigger score against people of the same skill level. You play against noobs. That's why.

In a thread about Aztecs, you say: Build 50 catapults until turn 50 and destroy everyone with ease. Here you say, expand, build a few archers and triple their science and score.
Things don't work like that. The topic starter asked the question whether the Mayans are OP or not in MP. So you have to assume that you play against a player who is as good as you.

I personally don't play MP but I'm a very experienced SP player on Immortal/Diety and from my experience, other civs, especially those ones with a production bonus of some sort, can easily keep up with the Mayan ICS aka city spam. Not to mention that a Tradition -> 4 city start generates more science in early/mid game anyway (with other disadvantages, of course).

 

[HelloGoodbye123]

Why do you always talk like that?
No, you won't have a bigger score against people of the same skill level. You play against noobs. That's why.

In a thread about Aztecs, you say: Build 50 catapults until turn 50 and destroy everyone with ease. Here you say, expand, build a few archers and triple their science and score.
Things don't work like that. The topic starter asked the question whether the Mayans are OP or not in MP. So you have to assume that you play against a player who is as good as you.

I personally don't play MP but I'm a very experienced SP player on Immortal/Diety and from my experience, other civs, especially those ones with a production bonus of some sort, can easily keep up with the Mayan ICS aka city spam. Not to mention that a Tradition -> 4 city start generates more science anyway (with other disadvantages, of course).

well this mayan strategy I havent done it myself, my friend did it when we were playing a teams game online. he built 17 cities. his score was about 1200 by turn 100, while we were all about 400-600 score points.. he was also making around 150 science by then..

and no in the other thread i didnt say 50 catapults, its just 6 swords, 4 catapults and 4 composite.. this is all done by turns 40-50 ... 40 if im lucky and 55 if im unlucky(sometimes iron is in a bad spot or it has forest/jungle which delays my attack because workers take longer to mine it).. also i must have an enemy near by, if i dont i can allocate those resources for the better.. and it might seem crazy..

As aztecs I never build granary/floating gardens/library, I rush those buildings with gold and in the meantime I am working on building jaguars from turn one(i dont build a scout either, i start by building a jaguar), the only one i do build is the shrine, and also I dont build a monument, since tradition will give me a free monument. so what build durinbg those 40 turns? military..

and the tech path? pottery-animal husbandry/archery to beeline wheel, then writing, then i get my lux tech (I settle on top of the lux to not worry about workers, happiness) and then those techs yield math, which is where i get my catapults. it is a very quick process...

PS: the reason Austria and mayans will score higher is not because they are in suchh big lead, city count increases score, just like building a wonder increases your score.. both civs arent doing WAYYY better just because of score, score means nothing

 

[Furycrab]

If you are playing on something like Pangaea plus or Earth map or just about anything with lots of space to expand, and if the players in your MP game are too passive and also let him get away with getting things like Messenger of the Gods + a bunch of + happy beliefs. Then ya, you could end up with a runaway Mayan somewhere in the Renaissance.

However you can pull off the bulk of the strategy with couple other civs and end up on very similar footing. You'll need to be more specific with game examples if you expect any serious discussion other than: OMG OP in multiplayer!?!

 

[HelloGoodbye123]

If you are playing on something like Pangaea plus or Earth map or just about anything with lots of space to expand, and if the players in your MP game are too passive and also let him get away with getting things like Messenger of the Gods + a bunch of + happy beliefs. Then ya, you could end up with a runaway Mayan somewhere in the Renaissance.

However you can pull off the bulk of the strategy with couple other civs and end up on very similar footing. You'll need to be more specific with game examples if you expect any serious discussion other than: OMG OP in multiplayer!?!

the thing with the mayans is that yes, you are going to be the one to get all the neat religious perks, with about 4-6 early cities with pyramids, even enemies with stonehenge wont have a chance, as mayans you will almost be first, theres some cases like spanish settling by uluru giving him 20 faith a turn. and yes theres ethiopia, but will ethiopia expand much? overall, mayans will almost always get first picks, if not, second pick will still get you at least cathedrals, temples happiness, garden happiness etc ..

in the beginning of course they are going to be rather weak and defenseless. but if you let them continue with the strategy, you are going to lose the game.

PS: not many ppl actually use that strategy ^ .. they kind of just build 3-4 cities, and choose their first great person as scientist to make academy, they also build great library.. that more simpler strategy will still give them a good start

 

[Silverfuturist]

So I have been playing a lot of multiplayer lately as I got a little bored of single player, and I noticed something. Every single match that I play against Maya, Maya dominates. I'm not even exaggerating either. There is not a single game that I have played against Maya where they aren't doing way better than every one else, and don't have a tech lead of at least 7% over everyone else by the time of the Industrial Era.

This isn't just be being upset I lose to Maya, because I'm a pretty average player, and I do well sometimes, but it just seems like any one who plays as Maya does extremely well for themselves, and I just can't seem to do better than them.

Maya are a very strong civ in MP, here are a few successful wins I have had:

1. ChukoNu rush - ranged units are stronger than ever, ChuKoNus are nasty city wreckers.

2. Attila horse archer/battering ram cheese

3. Spain finding wonder, buying settler and settling wonder right away to get a second virtual capital by move 12.

4. Aztec jungle bias - his +2 science per city destroyed by my +2 science per jungle tile at education.

5. Ottomans on water map - 1 trireme meets barbs and turns into 15 triremes and his coastal cities are mine.

6. Carthage on water map - tons of gold from free trade routes and lots of extra hammers.

7. outbuilding and outteching them with a "boring" civ - delayed effect, Maya usually leader for a while.

 

[PhilBowles]

So I have been playing a lot of multiplayer lately as I got a little bored of single player, and I noticed something. Every single match that I play against Maya, Maya dominates. I'm not even exaggerating either. There is not a single game that I have played against Maya where they aren't doing way better than every one else, and don't have a tech lead of at least 7% over everyone else by the time of the Industrial Era.

This isn't just be being upset I lose to Maya, because I'm a pretty average player, and I do well sometimes, but it just seems like any one who plays as Maya does extremely well for themselves, and I just can't seem to do better than them.

Try playing Maya yourself in your next game and see if it turns your fortunes around. They are a very strong civ, certainly - of the G&K civs, they're likely either the best or second only to Austria - but as people have mentioned ease of play rather than being overpowered is probably the key thing you're seeing. The "Maya party" certainly can last forever in the hands of a good player, since the player who runs away early will be able to stay in the lead with some forward planning, but I wouldn't call them overpowered - I've lost with them to AIs on Emperor before now.

5. Ottomans on water map - 1 trireme meets barbs and turns into 15 triremes and his coastal cities are mine.

7. outbuilding and outteching them with a "boring" civ - delayed effect, Maya usually leader for a while.

How about combining these two by playing Korea? Turtle ships are probably worth about 15 Triremes each when it comes to taking coastal cities (not much of an exaggeration), and Korea's slow-but-steady tech advantage gives them the best shot of overcoming the Maya tech lead in the mid-game.

 

[bayes]

For the Maya to be effective they need to get out a ton of cities, correct? In that case, the AI will get angry at you and in mp people should try to stop you. It is really easy to take a couple of cities from a really wide empire becasue his troops will be spread over a wide area and his cities will have less combat strength. The mayas are really strong and prolly the strongest civ if they go crazy wide and are undisturbed.

 

[_hero_]

Civ bonuses that are extremely strong in the early stages of the game are always going to be even stronger in multiplayer. In single player on any challenging difficulty level, the AI gets all sorts of stuff to boost their start which negates a lot of the power from something like Maya's UB, but in a multiplayer game, humans get no such thing.

 

[SVPM]

For the Maya to be effective they need to get out a ton of cities, correct?

I have played them in both MP and SP. In SP it was really good and easy to go wide quickly with the additionnal happiness from religion and science from pyramid.

The most efficient strategy I had with them in MP was to go military right away and invade the neighbor human and city states and go for construction to get composite as soon as possible and go to the next human. With 4 archers nobody can stop you that early except if they have rushed for archery right away. I have done it a couple of times and it has never been stopped yet. I don't do it anymore as it was too easy and was ruining everybody game as 2 other players were eliminated right from the start.

Even the AI deity had fallen to this early rush.

 

[GreekIrish]

OMG OP in multiplayer!?!

I'm pretty sure my description was a tad bit more descriptive than that.

 

[Silverfuturist]

Try playing Maya yourself in your next game and see if it turns your fortunes around. They are a very strong civ, certainly - of the G&K civs, they're likely either the best or second only to Austria - but as people have mentioned ease of play rather than being overpowered is probably the key thing you're seeing. The "Maya party" certainly can last forever in the hands of a good player, since the player who runs away early will be able to stay in the lead with some forward planning, but I wouldn't call them overpowered - I've lost with them to AIs on Emperor before now.



How about combining these two by playing Korea? Turtle ships are probably worth about 15 Triremes each when it comes to taking coastal cities (not much of an exaggeration), and Korea's slow-but-steady tech advantage gives them the best shot of overcoming the Maya tech lead in the mid-game.

Great idea, but haven't had a change to play Korea in GK MP yet, with 6 FFAs so far there has always been somebody without Korea!

 

[jango76]

Is this thread about the same Maya civilization I find in my version of Civ 5? That one has a catastrophically awful UA that completely screws up GP generation for the entire game. It's a nightmare to play with, not a "very strong civ".

Your mileage clearly varies...

 

[UkraineNotPuny]

in other words, OP - what you can see from this thread is people just talking about their playing styles...and those vary and yea...not really answering your question here.

I totally agree with you that Maya are OP - i absolutely wreck the AI and MP games are pretty much a cake-walk too...BUT only if you have a good start. in reality - when you play against equal opponents in MP or SP...the luck of the start is all that matters. blah blah strategies blah blah - we all have the same strategies...the friggin game only works a few ways.

 

[Kwami]

Is this thread about the same Maya civilization I find in my version of Civ 5? That one has a catastrophically awful UA that completely screws up GP generation for the entire game. It's a nightmare to play with, not a "very strong civ".

Your mileage clearly varies...

Somebody figured out that you could spam cities with the Mayans and since then it's been all the rage. When you're spamming cities, GPP don't matter all that much. Plus, you have a use for just about all of them (except for maybe the Admiral).

Hopefully, Firaxis will fix the problem in the next patch. ICS is lame.

 

[HelloGoodbye123]

ICS is lame.

I always thought OCC was lame
little effort for such a big tech lead...
you almost feel stupid making a second city when you can just have a 50 pop city with national college and all the other good science stuff..

 

[PhilBowles]

Is this thread about the same Maya civilization I find in my version of Civ 5? That one has a catastrophically awful UA that completely screws up GP generation for the entire game. It's a nightmare to play with, not a "very strong civ".

Your mileage clearly varies...

You don't get any fewer GPs with the Maya than with anyone else - anyone else gets the same penalty for creating 6 GPs (the Admiral, apparently, doesn't increase GPPs) that the Maya do, all that differs is the timing - the Maya get their first cluster of GPs much sooner than most. They also have longer to generate GPPs over the course of the game because they unlock specialist buildings sooner (and can always use their GE to rush Pisa if you're desperate for GPs). All you get is the restriction on which those GPs must be, but that's no real hardship since all have a use.

As with most of the stronger civs, it takes some planning to get the most out of the UA, just as it takes planning to keep city-states friendly (Siam) or maximise Songhai's economy or Persia's Golden Ages. Arguably, the Maya require much less planning than most of the above, and certainly don't need to play wide to get valuable bonuses. It helps to some degree, but they key benefit of the Pyramid - +2 science for low cost - is most useful in the early game, before you've had time to expand particularly drastically. Messenger of the Gods is more of an incentive for wide play, and is associated with the Maya pretty much by default as they get both quick faith and a science boost at the same game stage, but anyone can take it.

Hopefully, Firaxis will fix the problem in the next patch.

There isn't a "problem". The way the UA works is deliberate - 7 completely free GPs would simply be broken; as above you get no penalty you don't get from creating the same number of GPs naturally.

 

[Kwami]

There isn't a "problem". The way the UA works is deliberate - 7 completely free GPs would simply be broken; as above you get no penalty you don't get from creating the same number of GPs naturally.

The problem that I referred to is ICS. The UA is fine.