Is Oligarchy pointless? What about the other options?

[Antmanbrooks]

Hi, I was reading a thread about the civics by Dreadknought here. It got me thinking about the civics and in general I quite like them but I have a problem with the early government options and Oligarchy in particular in that it seems pointless in it's current form. I never use it because I have Monarchy at roughly the same period and the happiness/reduced maintenance benefits make Monarchy an all round better option. I can't think of an instance where Oligarchy is a better option than Monarchy?

This caused me to consider the "Government" civics in general. It seems to me that getting off Barbarism as soon as possible has to be a priority and rightly so. But the options are so few early on that Monarchy is the only viable path to take.

Thinking of real world goverments in the classical period of human civilization we had several options including;

• Monarchy - Rule by those connected by bloodline.
• Theocracy - Rule by those regarded as divinely guided.
• Oligarchy - Rule by a priviledged few or most commonly; rule by the rich (Plutocracy).
• Representative Democracy - Rule by elected representatives of the people.
• Direct Democracy - Rule by the people directly.

I think these government options need work to make each one of the above a good option under certain circumstances. Hopefully this will open some debate around the positives and negatives of each type of government in terms of game mechanics?

To get the debate rolling, an example of when a democracy might be a good option is in a society that includes many opposed groups and regards scientific advancement and civil freedom as important. On the other hand a theocracy might be the better option for a civilization with a single people and few minorities that follow religious ideals and consider their religious ideal above immoral scientific advancement.

 

[Freakwave]

I like the fact that all government options remain viable throughout the game. For instance personality cult for despotism. Have not played a game for long enough to see the effects, like civs actually changing back to it.

AI behaviour is now that it progresses nicely from top to bottom with Olichargy the exeption. It used to be overpowered now it is underpowered. Monarchy is now the civic to choose since it keeps being usefull from the time you research it to the industrial age, with all those nice boni that come along the way. The AI tends to choose the civics that reduce upkeep or give extra income, as do i mostly.

 

[dreadknought]

Yep, I was looking at oligarchy again and even modded a bit its not the best choice, but its the best science rate you can get before federalism combined with what amounts to 4 free workers, and a great general boost so its a bit of a hodge-podge. In the right circumstances I could see it combined with the best worker rate one and stacking great general points up, but at best I wouldnt want to use it for very long, unless you are playing a leader who you feel going should use that. If you are fighting alot it can fit in somewhat ok but you have to pick spots.

 

[dreadknought]

I like the fact that all government options remain viable throughout the game. For instance personality cult for despotism. Have not played a game for long enough to see the effects, like civs actually changing back to it.

AI behaviour is now that it progresses nicely from top to bottom with Olichargy the exeption. It used to be overpowered now it is underpowered. Monarchy is now the civic to choose since it keeps being usefull from the time you research it to the industrial age, with all those nice boni that come along the way. The AI tends to choose the civics that reduce upkeep or give extra income, as do i mostly.

Yep agree, And really monarchy was so common and powerfull for a long time that I think its pretty true to history if you are referring to this modded version. Mostly the greatest Euro empires ran monarchy for a very long time.

 

[Antmanbrooks]

I've thought some more about the Civics in R:I and I would like to offer the following suggestion for a revamp of the civics. I haven't thought about all the detail yet(I have some detailed) but I have an outline for now and it's something I think could improve the Civics IMO.

Instead of the 5 categories of Government, Legal, Labour, Economy and Religion I think the following might be used to better describe a Civilization's political ethos. Click below to expand my idea (thought I should hide it to keep the thread tidy).

Spoiler :

Supreme Power - This category is all about where the supreme power in the land lies, with one, few, many or no-one.

1. Anarchy - Taking the meaning literally "absence of a leader".
2. Autocracy - Translated as "one who rules by himself".
3. Oligarchy - Again, literally from ὀoλίγος (olígos), meaning "few", and ἄaρχω (arkho), meaning "to rule or to command".
4. Democracy - The name comes from δήμος (demos) that means "people" and κράτος (kratos) which means "power". So, literally is "the power of the people".

Power Base - The main power source in the social hierachy just below the ruling Supreme Power.

1. Tribal - Tribal chiefs and bands constantly trade power between them.
2. Aristocracy - The Nobility hold and maintain the power in the land via hereditory titles and rights.
3. Plutocracy - The power lies in the hands of those that can afford to buy or trade it.
4. Proletariat - Power comes from the salt of the earth, the workers and the middle class rather than with any elite class.
5. Theocracy - The Clergy or Priesthood hold the power in this land.
6. Military - A Junta of military officers hold on to power with an iron fist.
7. Meritocracy - A bureaucratic series of tests and examinations determine who is most capable based on their individual "merits", namely intelligence, credentials, and education.

Political Ideology The state's political stance towards it's people and neighbours.

1. Survivalism - Tribes and small societies just about manage to survive with a mixture of hunter-gathering and pastoral farming.
2. Totalitarianism (The Cult) - The state recognizes no limits to its authority and strives to regulate every aspect of public and private life wherever feasible. In a historical context it has been argued that the Nazi, Soviet and North Korean regimes are totalitarian.
3. Authoritarianism (The Police State, Big Brother) - Authoritarianism is characterized by highly concentrated, and centralized power maintained by political repression and the exclusion of potential challengers. Essentially the power is maintained by corruption and exclusion via the law rather than via fear tactics. Possibly the Roman Emperors could be considered Authoritarian as only "Roman citizens" had the power to vote and the rules to gain "citizenship" were chosen by the encumbent regime.
4. Conservatism (The Middle Ground) - A political and social philosophy that promotes retaining traditional institutions and supports, at most, minimal and gradual change in society.
5. Liberalism (Individual Freedom of sorts) - A political ideology founded on ideas of liberty, civil freedom and equality.
6. Socialism (The Hive) - State Socialism can be interpreted in many different ways and often is. A constant feature however is regulated social and economic equality for all.
7. Pacifism (Peace & Love) - Pacifism is the opposition to war and violence. An ideal utopia free from war and fear...

Economy - This remains much the same but some small changes.

1. Barter - Minimal Trade.
2. Guilds - Artisans in an association of craftsmen.
3. Mercantile - The economic doctrine in which government control of foreign trade is of paramount importance for ensuring the prosperity and military security of the state.
4. Lassez-Faire - Free Trade for all. Capitalism at it's best.
5. Mixed Economy - Some state intervention in the form of safeguards but still maintaining private ownership of trade and production.
6. Planned Economy - The state controls what to trade and produce and it's heavily regulated as part of a plan.
7. Green - The focus is on balanced and sustainable trade with as little impact on the planet as possible.

Labour - Again, this remains more or less the same.

1. Pastoralism - the family or tribe constructs whatever they need when spare time allows.
2. Slavery
3. Caste System
4. Serfdom
5. Indentured Servitude
6. Hired Labour
7. Labour Union

Religion - Some small changes.

1. Paganism - No state religion, the people maintain their traditional beliefs and folklore.
2. Divine Cult - The Supreme Power of the nations is/are seen as the direct descendants of the Gods or as Deities on Earth.
3. State Church - The Church is the State.
4. Free Church - The Church and clergy operate independantly to the state and is free to run it's own affairs.
5. Intolerant - Religious minorities are vilified and prejudice reigns supreme.
6. Secular - Religious tolerance, each person is free to choose his own faith and no other person has a right to pass opinions on the faith of an other person.
7. Atheist - The state has rejected the belief in the existence of deities.

Personally I think laying out the civics this way allows the player and the AI to really mould their nation. You can have many forms of Monarchy this way rather than just a plain old Monarchy. Democracy can be federal, direct or representative and all the intricate philosophies inbetween!

For example the Athenian Democracy could be interpreted as follows; Democracy, Plutocracy, Authoritarian, Mercantile, Slavery, Paganism.
The American ideal could be; Democracy, Meritocracy, Liberalism, Mixed Economy, Hired Labour, Secular.
Ancient Egypt might be; Autoctacy, Theocracy, Totalitarian, Barter, Slavery, Divine Cult.

Hope this takes off as I really do think this is much more organic than the civics as they stand.

 

[The Brute Squad]

Oligarchy isn't pointless. I often use it, more often than Monarchy, in fact, as I'm usually at war by late classical. Extra great generals are very handy attached to units spearheading my campaigns. Any time I'm at peace, though, Monarchy is almost always better. I do however, wish the Oligarchy benefit wasn't just for popping great generals. I wish it helped my units themselves gain experience that much faster, too. When I think of Oligarchy, and looking at the little icon, I think of martial law.

On a similar note, I notice that monasticism's monastic order, while conceptually cool to drop into a small city if it's starving, only works with Theocracy. This feels really limiting, especially for a building that has more negative effects than positive and can go away for changing civics. Having extra prerequisites for utilizing (some undisclosed by the tech pop-ups, you have to go into the pedia to see all of them) makes it feel a bit hog-tied when trying to mix and match civics.

Couldn't it just be like +1 , -1 or per Priest and no % effects? Besides the Angkor Wat not many cities can muster more than one priest by that point anyway. Theocracy then would be very synnergistic. Right now I never ever use Theocracy. Its +1 :happiness: per state and -1 per non-state at best case scenario simply cancel out, but more likely a negative net effect. The -10% bites and the war weariness only applies to those that are silly enough to pick fights they can't win quickly or easily drop out of anyway, so doesn't apply all that often. But if unlimited priests could meet me halfway in feeding their own order, that would make Theocracy useful again with Monasticism. You could even bump the gold penalty %, I wouldn't care.

That would give them similar synnergy to that of, say, the unlimited merchants of Free Market have with Hired Labor. Anyway, loving this Mod and the Ginormous World Map Scenario, it's the only version of Civ I enjoy playing. Oh, and is there a way to play as other leaders on that scenario in the works? Or perhaps a way to change leaders? (Say, for a few turns of Anarchy? hehe, probably not) Anywho, keep up the good work!