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Is space the only way to go?

Heroes

Heroes of Might and Magic
Joined
May 19, 2005
Messages
869
This is a standard continent 70% water map, difficulty Sid :D , barbarian raging, 7 AIs most aggressive, all others random. I found myself is China, and have river, 1 cow and 3 wines nearby, goody hut pops a warrior, -- looks not bad in the beginning. Max research pottery, and explore ... Gee, we are in an isolated island! :crazyeye:

Beijing becomes a 5-turn settler factory, but some nice barbs hamper me to settle new cities quickly. After pottery, max research alphabet. We need to build curragh and meet people, don't we? But just when I have the 1st curragh, Japanese settler and spear pair jumped into our island! That's 1500 BC, turn 60. I have 4 cities, and they have 14. ;) Hey, jap, since we are so close, why not show up earlier to save me some cost in alphabet? I happen to have an archer right there after fighting barbs, so ... We have 2 jap workers.

After 8 turns we see some Dromons sailing around, wow, welcome Theodora! But they come here not for party but for claiming the same desert area where the jap settler wanted to get. So ... 2 Byzantine workers. Why they love that place? There must be oil or sth ...

Suddenly a barb uprising happens near Chengdu, in 1175 BC, turn 73. Which 2 civs enter middle age? All the 3 of us are backwards people at this point. To save our 145 gold, I sign peace with jap and buy writing (just 2 turns before I can know it via self research), and build an embassy in Kyoto. They have both horse and iron. The rest cash is used to buy burial, with 9 gpt. Then I go for literature. The great lib is built by Babylon in 710 BC, damn so early? I bet they use a SGL ... Anyway I don't count on building GL, but want to trade it with jap and Byzantine.

Shortly after that, our embassy reports that jap declares war to Byzantine! Aha, they think their galley stands a chance vs. dromon? At the same time, Mongol is destroyed, before I get to know them and their foes. Good, at least we are not the 1st to be wiped out. :lol:

It's amazing to see dromons's "Greek fire" around. They sink jap ships, and try to bombard my cities and roads. It's funny that most of their bobardments fail, and the only true loss they make is 1 citizen in Shanghai. Maybe I should garrison some unit there, so they can only redline it?

Meanwhile, a elite warrior (I think he was the conscript warrior from goody hut) kills a Byzantine spear, destroyes a city, and pops up a leader (Kuang-Yin, the founder of Song Dynasty)! Militaristic trait is not too bad ... :lol:

I think we need to meet more people, but to do this, we need to make peace with Theodora. Our 1/1/2 curragh simply has nowhere to go, with so many 2/1/5 dromons (yeah, Byzantine built the great lighthouse, their ships are crazily fast) going everywhere. And we need RoP with jap, because that's the only safe (coastal) water area to enter. Currently Tokugawa is polite to me, because we share a common enemy, so we sign a straight up RoP. Then I make peace with Byzantine, and jap becomes unhappy. They wouldn't accept RoP if signing peace with Byzantine first :crazyeye:

My 3 curraghs go out slowly, and see jap and byz fighting everywhere. Edo is captured by byz once, and jap recaptures it. Jap built a city in my island (before I had enough settlers!), and byz continously send swords trying to capture it. But I don't meet any other civ.

At this period, I claim all the other areas in my island. And when I get 10 cities, rush forbidden palace in Shanghai with Kuang-Yin. Emm ... why not build an army? The reason is that we don't have right units to put in the army! For defending this island, we don't need army. For invading jap's continent (it's just funny that China and jap's relation is reversed in this game), a defensive army can be very helpful, -- but we will first need map making, bronze working, and preferably iron working (you don't like a spear army, do you?), and math (without artillery, no way to capture cities). That's a lot of techs and units to prepare, do we really have that much time? And you can see now jap has mace ... Sending spear and sword to fight mace looks not so promising. I build temples and granaries in my cities ... Not much point to build more archers and warrios besides for MP, and I let Beijing to build 1-turn MP warriors.

After getting literature, it's time to trade. What, map making is just "close to an deal"? OK, fine. Let's get code of laws and philosophy. If instead (with reloading ...) I get iron working and wheel from literature, I see there is an iron in my island, but no horse. And jap has at least 3 irons.

Then a single scientist to ... bronze working?! :p Don't laugh, I don't mean to do it in 50 turns. I want to steal republic from jap, and need to gather cash. That steal will be after buying all their cash for gpt, and we get either republic or a war :)

Just when I have enough cash (adding Tokugawa's, of course) for an immediate steal, in 150 BC, William of Netherlands jumps to suggest sell us a tech?! :) Wow, they know both printing press and Theodora ... OK, here is my save file. I could buy communication with any one of the other 3: Greece, Babylon, Persia. Greece and Babylon share a landmass and are advanced, Persia is still in AA for being in an island. But maybe it's better to wait for them to sell our communication to others.

Then buy jap's cash, wheel, and math, and a failed steal leads to war. Destroy Toyama, lose 2 archers, no leader.

How could I possibly WIN this game?

First, war or peace? War looks beneficial for our mil trait, but how to? And I would steal tech from those strong guys some time, and it could fail and bring a war. Isn't it harder to defend cities not in our island?

If peace, just defend our tiny island ... It's continent map, so maybe no one can reach domination victory, not to say conquest. And UN win is usually impossible for AI, unless we are doing AW. Culture ... There are 4 scientific rivals, and 1 agricultual, everybody is strong. Probably no one can gain more than double cultures than the 2nd guy.

So is space victory the only reasonable way to go? To do that, we need to defend our 11-city island, and continously try tech steal and 2-fer. Although we are terribly behind now, hopefully AIs will be slow in buliding spaceship. We could ignite some world war to make tech pace slow, just a possibility. The negative side is that 4 civs are scientific ... And we are mil. In this sense I really wish we were commercial or scientific (Greece or Korea?).

Do you have suggestion to such a miserable (but interesting) situation? :)
 

Heroes

Heroes of Might and Magic
Joined
May 19, 2005
Messages
869
I thought I attached an image and a save file ... How to do that?
 

Heroes

Heroes of Might and Magic
Joined
May 19, 2005
Messages
869
Let me see whether these attachments come correctly ...
 

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vmxa

Deity
Supporter
Joined
Feb 9, 2004
Messages
14,093
Location
Oviedo, Fl
Now you see why it is often a good idea to use no barbs. The goody huts can only only help the AI and speed up the race through the AA.

Also I love China, but not at Sid. You want to have Alphabet. I did not load the game, but you cannot be sure that a KAI won't show up and take its contient. If that happens, I have lost to culture as sooner or later you have to take down civs to compete.

Space will be very tough as you will not be able to research and probably not have the resources to build parts with only that island. Steals will cost too much for such a small empire. You will have to gain more land to have a shot at a win.

This means you want to get some invaders to generate leaders and make armies. Find a spot to invade someone and hold on till they wear themselves out.
 

MrMahk

Warlord
Joined
May 23, 2005
Messages
269
Location
New York
I think that it is too early to tell now how to win the game, but for the time being, I think you should try to explore westward to hopefully meet some new civs that the Byzantines or at least probably not the Japanese don't know about and use that to your advantage.
 

vmxa

Deity
Supporter
Joined
Feb 9, 2004
Messages
14,093
Location
Oviedo, Fl
I see from the screenie that you have not use tight city placement. I think that is a must with an island and especially on an island at Sid.

I would have use CxxC and gotten more cities down. More cities means more of everything.

I would buy as many of those contacts as you can afford. It can only help to see more of the map and have more chances for deals and lower research rates. Maybe even trade back some contacts to get the cash back or a tech.

I don't see the value in the FP where it is, if it was put in Xinjian it would mean the saving of the cost of a CH. I don't see the value of making a CH in the FP city.

I am skeptical of making any libs, you will not be able to research on your own, so why spend the shields and maint? You would not need border expansions if you have tighter city placement.

You need to go to an AW mind set without actually having to stay at war all the time.

Go to Monarchy and stay there and do not be quick to offer peace to anyone, except those that can force you to do it. You want them to spend all their money on troops and sending them over peacemeal for you to practice upon.
 

Heroes

Heroes of Might and Magic
Joined
May 19, 2005
Messages
869
Thank you guys, I appreicate your helps :)

About contact: at the point when the Dutch shows up, I can buy contact with either one of the 3 left civs, Babylon, Greece, or Persia, but can just afford one of them. No way to get money back. So I guess it's better to wait for somebody sell our communication around, which hopefully would take place in several turns.I tried this to see the map. Dutch, Babylon and Greece share a continet and are advanced, Persia is in an isaland and backwards.

About city placement and FP: what's in my mind is that I should go to the nearby continent, so I will have more cities, and the FP is put in that direction. One thing that sucks for this island is that there is only another city (Nanking) besides Beijing has fresh water ...

About buildings: my thought about war or peace was vague, so I didn't really know what to build. I thought war is too difficult, so didn't want to train more units, and lib is the only peaceful building left, -- I probably need to self research currency and/or republic, otherwise it takes too damn long to gather cash to steal.

BUT, now I think as an ind and mil civ (what a funny setting for China, shouldn't it be agr or sci rather than mil, for having the largest population and most ancient inventions?), there is not much future to stay in this tiny island. As Hannibal says:"Fight the system! There is nothing to gain in status quo!" :lol:

To make a beachhead, the absolutely min techs are: bronze working and map making. To make any progress, math is the 1st thing, and iron working the 2nd. Although people will have medival infantry everywhere, let's hope they don't attack sword (or spear, gee :lol: ) armies.

I want to reload the save before making peace with jap. To spend my cash facing barb uprising, I would buy bronze working rather than burial. Then self reserach literature, and trade it to map making. I could build 5 or so curraghs, and upgrade them to galleys after having a 30 shield harbor (thanks to mil). Then a fearsome fleet with 1 setter, 1 worker, 8 spears will go for D-day. The worker will join city and rush a wall (is this possible?). It's too bad that there is no hill nearby! So a wall is must ...

About republic or monarchy: I'm too far away from either of them yet ... But let me see what chance can I get. :)

Thank you guys again!

vmxa said:
I see from the screenie that you have not use tight city placement. I think that is a must with an island and especially on an island at Sid.

I would have use CxxC and gotten more cities down. More cities means more of everything.

I would buy as many of those contacts as you can afford. It can only help to see more of the map and have more chances for deals and lower research rates. Maybe even trade back some contacts to get the cash back or a tech.

I don't see the value in the FP where it is, if it was put in Xinjian it would mean the saving of the cost of a CH. I don't see the value of making a CH in the FP city.

I am skeptical of making any libs, you will not be able to research on your own, so why spend the shields and maint? You would not need border expansions if you have tighter city placement.

You need to go to an AW mind set without actually having to stay at war all the time.

Go to Monarchy and stay there and do not be quick to offer peace to anyone, except those that can force you to do it. You want them to spend all their money on troops and sending them over peacemeal for you to practice upon.
 

Heroes

Heroes of Might and Magic
Joined
May 19, 2005
Messages
869
vmxa said:
You need to go to an AW mind set without actually having to stay at war all the time.

Go to Monarchy and stay there and do not be quick to offer peace to anyone, except those that can force you to do it. You want them to spend all their money on troops and sending them over peacemeal for you to practice upon.

The more I think about this situation, the more I would like to go to Feudalism. Yes, I mean the feudalism government! :) Both republic and monarchy are optional techs, this is their main downside. Feudamlism has massive unit support, as long as I have many small towns. Emm ... The hopefully new cities in continent will stay small, -- they will do pop rush! Both republic and monarchy do cash rush, but I badly need cash to buy and steal tech. So, a little bit ICS on desert or tundra, just to contribute unit support, taxmen, or scientists, and pop rush cities in food rich area. Is that viable? :)

I didn't really do pop rush before. It's this terrible situation that forces me to consider all the weird strategies. :D Is there any change for pop rush between vanilla and C3C? There is an article in war academy, but I don't know whether its information is still correct ... :crazyeye:
 
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