Is the Agricultural trait unbalanced?

[Guildenstern]

Every game where I play an Agricultural civ seems like a cakewalk to me. The initial expansion is a key part of the game, and Agricultural civs seem to have an easy time of shooting ahead at the beginning, and acquiring enough cities to stay there.

I've recently started playing the game on Regent difficulty level. Had some trouble at first, but a few days ago I decided to try playing the Celts. I got a continents map, and I decided to forgo most wonders (even my usually much-coveted Great Lighthouse), and just concentrating on expanding and getting Gallic Swordsmen as soon as possible. I promptly set up two 4-turn Settler factories, and two 4-turn Spearman factories to supply my new cities with defenders, and I shot off like a rocket. Obtained Iron Working about 50 turns into the game, and then obtained Iron about 15 turns later (it was slightly out of reach). It is now 700 AD and I've reduced the Hittites to one city on the far end of the continent, and eliminated the English completely (the other civs were random, but I threw in the English for the express purpose of eliminating them, as I was the Celts after all ). I haven't gone to war with the Sumerians yet (they are the only other power left on my continent), because the Dutch (on the other continent) built the Great Lighthouse, and I don't want to be stranded on my continent with nobody to talk to until Navigation, because that's boring and I'll end up quitting the game if I do that. During all this, I've also managed to put up Temples and Libraries everywhere, Barracks and Marketplaces in many places, Cathedrals in some places, and built the Hanging Gardens and the Sistine Chapel. There is nowhere left to settle on my continent, but my Settler factories are continuing to run, as now I've got about ten Galleys running my Settlers to all the islands I can find.

So, I've had much success, according to me anyway. But I attribute it all to having the Agricultural trait, which made it easy to set up the Settler factories and dominate the initial expansion phase.

Does anyone else here agree that Agricultural might be unbalanced? Or do you think the other traits give advantages enough to match it?

 

[Gengis Khan]

Unbalanced? It's iffy, it's by far the strongest trait though.

 

[HalfBadger]

I don't find it unbalanced, but it definately one of the top 3 traits. the Celts are my Favorite civ, since Religious I find is another top trait. The Gaelic Swordsman is also an amazing UU.

Maybe try the Dutch or Aztec to see how good Agriculture is, or the other Agricutural ones, except Mayans more workers faster than work faster is just wrong.

 

[dgfred]

I the Gallic Sword also. They are tough to deal with. The AI does
seem to play Agric. civ very well. Probably because they tend to build
settlers at every chance. . They always play well as the Dutch
and Iroquois.

 

[The Last Conformist]

I think Agr is too strong.

 

[Jamesds]

Other traits are also strong, so i don't think agriculture is too powerful.

I just can't play any civ without Scientific trait yet, but I should probably. Maybe after one more game. I just love half price libraries and Uni's! It fits in with my cultural expansion & science rush early in the game.

 

[Tatran]

At the http://www.civ3.de/ site something is said about getting
one extra food for cities 7 or higher for agricultural civs,just like
the extra gold and/or shields for commercial and industrial civs.
Is this correct,if a city doesn't have fresh water and your
government is still a despotism?

It could be an alternative to slow down the expansion of the
agricultural civs by giving them not a food bonus for a town,
one food bonus for a city and maybe two food bonus for
metropolis in the city square.

 

[Gogf]

If it is on fresh water, no matter what size, or government, they get one extra food in the city center.

 

[Nihilist]

The ironic thing is that most of the less-advanced and less-powerful civilizations (at least in real life, such as the Celts, Iroquois, Inca, and Dutch) have the Agricultural trait, and thus have a greater tendency of becoming superpowers. At least that's what I've noticed in many of my games.

 

[Oddible]

The balance of this game tips at when your Civ gets bigger than every other Civ as the game is almost entirely based on size. If you are bigger, you produce more units, more science, more money. Therefore, any trait that makes you bigger quicker would seem to be imbalanced. Likewise, Agricultural trait shortens the game, as in, since you can get bigger than all of your opponents quicker, you will sooner get to a point in the game where winning is a foregone conclusion.

On the other hand, playing an agricultural civ in an OCC is probably not going to do much good, so it rests in play style and challenges too. If you take advantage of Militaristic trait right, your armies will be a decidedly major factor in the game. Likewise the other traits.

@Jamesds - trade. I used to always pick Scientific civs too. Then I realized that it's all a matter of what you research and opportunistic trading. If you see one civ has a tech that another doesn't, sell your soul to get that tech and trade it to the other AI. Especially if that other AI has something else that you don't have. Also, pick the uncommon research path and stick to one line, go deep rather than broad - that way you always have something to trade. In transitioning out of Science addiction, try a civ that's Industrious Commercial - powerhouse, or Agricultural Commercial - massive.

 

[dze27]

It's the best trait in my books... and from my games the AI plays the Agricultural civs the best. It could definitely be toned down a little bit, maybe in part by weakening (or making them more expensive) some of the strong UUs for Agr civs like the Swiss Mercenary and the Gallic Swordsman. At least with the Incas you have a mediocre UU to balance things somewhat.

 

[rcoutme]

I am not sure that I agree with dze27 that it is the best. It is very, very useful. Much more useful early (as everyone has said). The other trait that is fairly powerful, however, is Industrious. With the new C3C and patches, Industrious has been weakened because it was so powerful. In Civ3, roads are money and money is research. Since stored money is not used for research (although it most definately can be used for trading for techs!), the higher the money/turn the more potential research.

Industrious civs get roads built faster, irrigation built faster, etc. For me the tradeoffs between industrious and agricultural are about even.

 

[superslug]

The Mayans are undeniably powerful, so I'm somewhat thankful that they're somewhat handicapped by a typically early Golden Age...

 

[LordKestrel]

The Mayans are undeniably powerful, so I'm somewhat thankful that they're somewhat handicapped by a typically early Golden Age...

Actually, with the Mayan's UU as an archer replacement, you don't need to have an early GA at all. Just stick with the warrior/swordsman line, and you can have your GA whenever you want (my prefered time with them is either immediately after becoming a Monarchy, or upon building the Hoover Dam).

 

[TerraHero]

i find the Agr trait very powerfull, u can build huge empires, and the larger the empire the more income (if u do it right) Also u ahve a good chance of getting to curtain resources first.

I dun say its over powered, but its definatly strong..i guess thats why there are no Ind/Agr civ's, that civ would be unstopable.

 

[Gengis Khan]

You forgot the Mayans.

 

[HalfBadger]

I am not sure that I agree with dze27 that it is the best.
Industrious civs get roads built faster, irrigation built faster, etc. For me the tradeoffs between industrious and agricultural are about even.

But with Agricultural you can build workers faster and not loose too much production of your city, since you grow it back faster. Also POp rushing a couple times in a city won't phase it that much.

 

[Civrules]

Agr gives you a bigger early boost than any other traits. It's really the best trait.

 

[socralynnek]

Yes, I also think the same way, I am currently playing a game with the Inca and although I didn't use the exp trait really that much (It was a rather samll island, considered that it was a standard pangea map) and the UU is nice for explorations but it didn't give me that much, but I still growed faster than the others, got the ressources, am in a tech lead that got me 2 SGLs and am researching replaceable parts while the others are researching Magnetism! I already crushed two neighbors and when I get tanks, nobody can stop me!

 

[genghis_khev]

Agg is very powerful but all the cit traits have their strenghts and weaknesses.

I tend to play agg civs and yes usually out expand the computer, at the expense of internal developement / city improvements / military build-up. This leaves me bigger, yes, but also somewhat vunerable to early blackmail or wars. Also, on standard map size at least (what I play), early rapid expansion does not guarentee a game-winning advantage.

To say the agg civ trait is too powerful when used for early rapid expansion is like saying the militaristic advantage is too powerful if used with a warrior / swordsman / legion / archer rush. Of course it will help! Its ment too!!