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Is the Civ Series telling a wrong (hi)story?

Discussion in 'Civ6 - General Discussions' started by historix69, Feb 27, 2018.

  1. nzcamel

    nzcamel Nahtanoj the Magnificent

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    Yeah, what both you guys have said re cities being regional areas was going to be my comment; but also noting that districts had jarred that a little.

    I've read 'Why the West Rules...for now"; and he presents evidence that would agree to an extent with the OP. I think, from memory, it was a bigger factor though as cities exploded with the industrial revolution. At least to begin with. A city alone sustaining it's own population is very much a modern thing; but as cities in Civ have farms etc, they realistically represent a province of sorts rather than just the city itself.

    Egypt. Kinda ;)

    It was Civ III as historix69 says.
     
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  2. historix69

    historix69 Emperor

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    I don't think so. The old egypt and the pyramids were almost forgotten when Napoleon visited Egypt around 1800.
    After a probably good start, Egypt was part of the Persian, Greek, Roman, Byzanthine, Islamic-Arabian, Otoman and British empire. They were out of the game for about the last 2.300 years and were just recently resurrected around 1956 when British troops left Egypt. (They also lost several wars against the smaller Israel.)
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2018
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  3. historix69

    historix69 Emperor

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    Slavery was common in ancient (and following) times. Up to 80% of the population in some ancient greek cities were slaves.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_ancient_Greece
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_ancient_Rome


    For those who skipped the Guardian review of the book ("Against the Grain: A Deep History of the Earliest States" by James C. Scott) linked in OP, here are some more quotes :
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2018
  4. Krajzen

    Krajzen Deity

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    The very starting date of civ, 4000BC, is controversial. From what I understood, by 4000 BC there was no civilization anywhere yet (but rare tiny proto-cities could happen, mainly in the Middle East), Egypt united and Sumer definitely emerged only about 3000 BC.

    The longest surviving civilizations of history would be:
    China, if we count since Shang dynasty (the first one supported by archeology) till today (...such continuity is also controversial!) - roughly 3600 years
    India, if we count since Vedic period (Indus valley was IMO self contained, separate entity - after all its language is so isolate it is completely undeciphered!) - roughly 3500 years
    Israelites/Hebrews/Jews - roughly 3000 years, although obviously in this case we are talking about culture/peoples/diaspora rather than state
    ancient Egypt - I mean, it's completely dead culture for a long time (Arabic Islamic Egypt has goddamn almost nothing in common with ancient one) but it still survived 3000 years in some form before going extinct
    Iran, if we count since Media or Achaemenids - roughly 2600 years
     
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  5. Alexander's Hetaroi

    Alexander's Hetaroi Deity

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    So that's why the Mapuche list is like that.
    Anyway since it's supposed to represent an alternative abstract historical simulation, it doesn't bother me.
    Also even if many people lived outside of urban settlements your still building a bunch of farms out in the country for people to live in as well which would also count as the population towards the so called "city."
     
  6. Ferocitus

    Ferocitus Deity

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    Why resort to that type of binary claptrap? People can be interested in history,
    disagree with your assertion, and contribute to the thread.

    I think you're seriously suggesting that Civ should change in some way
    because a few teachers are using it. Those teachers must be why they put
    warnings on some products, like: "Do not insert toothpick in eye".
     
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  7. nzcamel

    nzcamel Nahtanoj the Magnificent

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    Well I did wink lol

    Is someone asserting otherwise? I missed that...

    I think using Civ or Diplomacy (the boardgame which is also used in classrooms) to make kids more interested in history, economics, geography, diplomacy, and (most importantly) critical thinking... is a good idea. The games don't have to be any more accurate than they are, as the goal is to engage minds that are otherwise wandering far far away. Getting kids to actually put themselves in the shoes of those in the past to me is at least as useful as having them default to looking at it all through the eyes of the 21st century West! The many inaccuracies and simplifications can be corrected later.
     
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  8. Ferocitus

    Ferocitus Deity

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    Starting with "Civ is not a history simulator" seems critical.

    The goal is noble, the method is lazy rubbish.
    Yes, Johnny, Cleopatra had problems concentrating after a Maccas lunch,
    just like you. She had Asp Burgers Syndrome.

    Not teaching them claptrap in the first place seems better.
    What happens if they don't get follow up to correct the crap that
    some lazy teacher instills in them?
     
  9. Returning Lurker

    Returning Lurker Prince

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    That’s how I always thought of it in Civ5. The city on the map is just the capital of the given province and all your tile improvements are the real cities (farming communities, mining towns, trade hubs, etc.) Then Civ 6 had to come in and ruin it with districts and wonders taking up a whole tile. Now the Pyramids stretch for hundreds of square miles and my people must walk five hundred and fifty years to get from the stables to the library. I know scale was always a weakness of civ but 6 really amped up the “abstraction” to the point where I just see the game mechanics of cities, not the historical role play.
     
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  10. Trav'ling Canuck

    Trav'ling Canuck Deity

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    They only have to walk 550 years from the library to the stable. They can ride horses back from the stables to the library, and it only takes 225 years. :lol: :lol: :lol:
     
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  11. Ezumiyr

    Ezumiyr Warlord

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    Really?! 0_0
    As someone who taught ancient history, that's really not something that would come to my mind.

    The Civ series, like most games with a historical inspiration, does a good job presenting some historical "trivia", but it would be terrible as a support to teach history. It's not even that some stuff is missing or that there are some mistakes. It's just that... it's not historical at all. Just like being a samurai fighting viking in For Honour will never be historical, no matter how accurate are the weapons/gears.
    Typically, Civilization is a game where history is used for its iconic, easily recognizable, value.
    But comparing how history "works" with Civ gameplay is simply stupid, or at the very best, obsolete. Real people don't produce more and more ressources of different types in a linear way towards progress and victory. The closest thing to reality in Civ is probably warfare. But it's still extremely simplified and abstracted to the point that I would never try to use it as an example... It would be way simpler to use Total War for that. And when teaching other stuff like the roman imperial administration or the developement of the first cities in Europe... Civ simply doesn't have anything to help. People didn't just found cities with "settlers" and start producing "food" on tiles.
     
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  12. Zenstrive

    Zenstrive Ocean King

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    You can always make a historical accurate mod. Like when in medieval age you will be hit by minus population unless you have the industrial AND commercial district to zero it out but then you can't make settler.
     
  13. nzcamel

    nzcamel Nahtanoj the Magnificent

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    Sure it's not :rolleyes:
    Of course it is! It just covers such a broad time period over the entire world that it's never going to come close to simulating much of what really happened. It is a very simplified simulator built around having fun.
    Yes it will never do history as well as Total War or Paradox or others...but then they stick to manageable time periods and/or area's of the world. Name me another game that goes from 4,000BC through to now, that actually simulates history how you'd like it to? :lol: It will not exist.
    So Civ isn't a simulator cos history as a whole is impossible to simulate. Doesn't mean that it isn't a useful tool in the hands of the right teacher.

    You and I, and most people are not the average student yawning in history class. I'm not saying the whole years course should be handed over to games. But incorporating games into teaching will engage some of those falling through the cracks. Obviously I'm talking more about younger students who have it as a compulsory subject, rather than those who have chosen to study history in high school.

    Someone's more likely to get the chance if they are actually interested in history.

    No one is actually suggesting that Civ comes close to reality. Given it's parameters it never will.
    I'm talking about interesting kids and getting them to make and own choices, which a sandbox game gives them better than a tighter strategy game built more around war does.
     
  14. Victoria

    Victoria Regina Supporter

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    The bible does have references to flying machines, maybe that was Kongo’s biplanes?

    The whole city negative population thing is anecdotal. I read somewhere that ancient horsemen formed wedges and chopped through opposition lines, maybe that where civ hot the horsemen power from. It’s one of my pet peeves.

    But it is that, just a pet, it’s a game and mimicking one human is not possible for an AI currently, let alone a world full.
     
  15. pietro1990

    pietro1990 Prince

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    No rome did built the pyramids. don't you know that?
     
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  16. historix69

    historix69 Emperor

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    https://ngvcivilization.wordpress.com/
    https://sites.google.com/site/642toolbox/civinclassroom
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/using-civilization-in-the-classroom.468089/
    https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/civilization-iv-classroom-unit.286692/

    https://www.reddit.com/r/civ/comments/1yldpn/civ_5_in_the_classroom/
    https://www.theverge.com/2016/6/24/12023958/civilization-v-education-high-school
    https://www.polygon.com/2016/6/23/12019632/sid-meier-civilization-edu-learning-game
    http://edu4.me/civilization-v-the-most-popular-strategy-game-ever-is-reaching-the-classroom/

    https://www.engadget.com/2016/06/24/civilizationedu-takes-the-strategy-franchise-to-school/
    https://www.edsurge.com/news/2015-08-14-sid-meiers-civilization-is-it-educational
    http://www.ign.com/articles/2016/06...-civilization-game-heading-to-schools-in-2017

    https://www.commonsense.org/education/game/sid-meiers-civilization-v
    https://www.commonsense.org/education/game/sid-meiers-civilization-vi
     
  17. Depravo

    Depravo Siring Bastards

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    Exactly. Even a game as basic as Diplomacy can get people thinking along lines like 'better not get into a war with France and Russia at the same time' or 'if Turkey collapses, I'm screwed' or 'what can I promise Italy to get them to switch sides'. In short, the foundations of geopolitics. It's not remotely accurate in any historical sense, but you have to start somewhere.
     
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  18. Duckfromstatefarm

    Duckfromstatefarm Warlord

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    This thread is tempting to comment what I think about this game, but I'll sit back and eat some popcorn.
     
  19. EgonSpengler

    EgonSpengler Deity

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    I agree. I'm not sure there's a single thing in this game that is represented in a realistic or historical way. Using it as a teaching tool just seems too fraught to be worth the time.
     
  20. Temppu

    Temppu Warlord

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    I wonder why so many long for literal slavery in particular from all the missing items of history. After all, you can steal civilians and purchasing buildings can be considered an abstraction of slavery. Implementing explicit slavery in a game in 2018 would obviously cause a massive media controversy, and hence is something that no big game company would do in their right minds.
     
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