Is The Ikhanda (Shaka's UB) Really THAT cool?
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Monkeyfinger
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Shaka's synergy is incredible. He has a trait which gives him stronger troops, a blazingly fast-moving UU that's affected by it, a building that helps pay for the cities he conquers, and a second trait that helps him grow and improve them!
...pity the boost to troop strength is one measly, fixed promotion that only works on 2 unit classes, the UU can't actually kill any city defenders even with the aggressive boost and has its movement wasted on its role as a stack protector, the building's savings are 40% of what you'd get from a courthouse, and the expansive trait's worker production bonus got ruined.
Shaka is a case of the whole being greater than the sum of its parts, but the parts being such utter junk that it doesn't matter. The whole's still trashy, just slightly less so.
At least the health bonus is a lot more useful in BtS.
Pre-emptive answer to inevitable question: No I do not write for IGN, no I do not think Inca sucks.
...pity the boost to troop strength is one measly, fixed promotion that only works on 2 unit classes, the UU can't actually kill any city defenders even with the aggressive boost and has its movement wasted on its role as a stack protector, the building's savings are 40% of what you'd get from a courthouse, and the expansive trait's worker production bonus got ruined.
Shaka is a case of the whole being greater than the sum of its parts, but the parts being such utter junk that it doesn't matter. The whole's still trashy, just slightly less so.
At least the health bonus is a lot more useful in BtS.
Pre-emptive answer to inevitable question: No I do not write for IGN, no I do not think Inca sucks.
Legal_My_Deagle
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I haven't even played Shaka yet, but I can already tell that you aren't thinking all of your points through very well. =/
Free Combat I promotion: Only a measily 10% bonus, right? Wrong. It is a free promotion that you don't have to buy, and is the prereq for a lot of useful traits like Medic and most of the anti-specific unit type traits. Think of it this way: with a free Combat I promotion, every time you upgrade your troops, you are one upgrade ahead of what you would normally be, plus you didn't have to accumulate the higher cost of the next level of experience. You also get cheaper barracks.
Can't say anything about the performance of the Impi since like I said I haven't even played Shaka yet.
Building's savings are 40% of what you would get from a Courthouse....your point being? The Barracks doesn't normally do that, and is CUMULATIVE with the Courthouse. Who cares if it provides a separate bonus that is "only" 40% of what another building made to provide that specific function gives? That has nothing to do with how useful the Ikhanda is.
Free Combat I promotion: Only a measily 10% bonus, right? Wrong. It is a free promotion that you don't have to buy, and is the prereq for a lot of useful traits like Medic and most of the anti-specific unit type traits. Think of it this way: with a free Combat I promotion, every time you upgrade your troops, you are one upgrade ahead of what you would normally be, plus you didn't have to accumulate the higher cost of the next level of experience. You also get cheaper barracks.
Can't say anything about the performance of the Impi since like I said I haven't even played Shaka yet.
Building's savings are 40% of what you would get from a Courthouse....your point being? The Barracks doesn't normally do that, and is CUMULATIVE with the Courthouse. Who cares if it provides a separate bonus that is "only" 40% of what another building made to provide that specific function gives? That has nothing to do with how useful the Ikhanda is.
Monkeyfinger
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Certain units are ahead of the promotion curve with aggressive, not all of them. Charismatic is really superior, affecting all units albeit slightly less profoundly, and it grants a builder bonus to boot. That trait existing really hurts aggressive's relative value.
Money saved by courthouses is great. Cut it by 2/5ths, and it's a lot less so. The Ikhanda is still an improvement over its regular counterpart, mind, it's certainly better than having no UB at all... but the same is true with all UBs. There are so many UB benefits that are just BETTER than 2/5th's of a courthouse worth of saved gold. You need to keep in mind how good other UBs are when comparing them.
REPLIES TO BHURIC, TRAVELLING THROUGH TIME!!!!!
More like mounted units, helicopter units and tank units do plenty of fighting too and aggressive doesn't do jack for them
Thanks for reinforcing my stance. In the off chance you are in a position where an opponent is weak enough to be knocked over by fast moving 4 strength units, the cheaper Chariots exist. Costing 10 hammers less and being allowed by a better tech than Bronze Working >>>>>> benefitting from Aggressive's weak dick boost.
I concede your third point, I should have thought of that.
Deagle already made your fourth and I shot it to pieces.
The worker boost was never impressive to begin with due to that horrible "only hammers work, not food" provision. Now it's just crap.
Money saved by courthouses is great. Cut it by 2/5ths, and it's a lot less so. The Ikhanda is still an improvement over its regular counterpart, mind, it's certainly better than having no UB at all... but the same is true with all UBs. There are so many UB benefits that are just BETTER than 2/5th's of a courthouse worth of saved gold. You need to keep in mind how good other UBs are when comparing them.
REPLIES TO BHURIC, TRAVELLING THROUGH TIME!!!!!
More like mounted units, helicopter units and tank units do plenty of fighting too and aggressive doesn't do jack for them
Thanks for reinforcing my stance. In the off chance you are in a position where an opponent is weak enough to be knocked over by fast moving 4 strength units, the cheaper Chariots exist. Costing 10 hammers less and being allowed by a better tech than Bronze Working >>>>>> benefitting from Aggressive's weak dick boost.
I concede your third point, I should have thought of that.
Deagle already made your fourth and I shot it to pieces.
The worker boost was never impressive to begin with due to that horrible "only hammers work, not food" provision. Now it's just crap.
2 unit classes that happen to make up the majority of your attacking units throughout the game?
The UU can actually do a decent job of attacking in an early rush capacity. People do Chariot rushes, which is a unit with the same strength/moves. Except the Chariot won't have the free Combat I promotion, or the ability to use the CR promotion line.
Depends what it's protecting. If you use them to defend a Chariot/Horse Archer stack, they can both move quite quickly.
Yes, but you can still build the courthouse. Getting the 20% early decreases your upkeep in the early game - you then add on to that with courthouses, giving you a 70% total - better than any Civ except the HRE.
It didn't get "ruined", it's just less impressive than it was.
Bh
Legal_My_Deagle
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"Certain units are ahead of the promotion curve with aggressive, not all of them. Charismatic is really superior, affecting all units albeit slightly less profoundly, and it grants a builder bonus to boot. That trait existing really hurts aggressive's relative value."
Cheap barracks, and a free promotion. Aggressive melee and gunpowder start off stronger, and are more likely to survive to be promoted vs Charismatic's. As with many things in this game, the earlier advantage to give you the edge in a fight can end up making an overall more profound difference than a *possible* bigger advantage (there comes a time in experience accumulation where an aggressive unit will eventually have less promotion than a charismatic one...eventually, assuming the charismatic didn't die before) Aggressive is about now, NOW! and Charismatic is about later, LATER! Problem is that later is often too late, because by then your enemy may have either destroyed or nullified the advantage you were waiting for. It is along the same lines as why people have relatively recently started liking the idea of Lightbulbing great people.
"Money saved by courthouses is great. Cut it by 2/5ths, and it's a lot less so."
....Is it? If I have a Ikhanda in every one of my cities (not farfetched as they are half price) that can mean that much earlier in the game (much more so than the Courthouse comes, mind you) I can afford to keep my empire approximently 2/5's bigger than what it would have been otherwise. Approximently, because there are other miscellaneous expenses. Even so if I were extremely generous and only counted it as a 1/5 bonus, that means my empire is 20% larger.
Don't declare a premature win, that is shortsighted.
Cheap barracks, and a free promotion. Aggressive melee and gunpowder start off stronger, and are more likely to survive to be promoted vs Charismatic's. As with many things in this game, the earlier advantage to give you the edge in a fight can end up making an overall more profound difference than a *possible* bigger advantage (there comes a time in experience accumulation where an aggressive unit will eventually have less promotion than a charismatic one...eventually, assuming the charismatic didn't die before) Aggressive is about now, NOW! and Charismatic is about later, LATER! Problem is that later is often too late, because by then your enemy may have either destroyed or nullified the advantage you were waiting for. It is along the same lines as why people have relatively recently started liking the idea of Lightbulbing great people.
"Money saved by courthouses is great. Cut it by 2/5ths, and it's a lot less so."
....Is it? If I have a Ikhanda in every one of my cities (not farfetched as they are half price) that can mean that much earlier in the game (much more so than the Courthouse comes, mind you) I can afford to keep my empire approximently 2/5's bigger than what it would have been otherwise. Approximently, because there are other miscellaneous expenses. Even so if I were extremely generous and only counted it as a 1/5 bonus, that means my empire is 20% larger.
Don't declare a premature win, that is shortsighted.
KMadCandy
giggling permanoob
no way! have you ever played as shaka? if you're not using them as pillagers, if you're actually having them wait after moving one tile to protect the stack, that's still not a waste. they have the cutest dance! they're all excited about the chance to go beat somebody up. really, impis are adorable and that extra move isn't wasted, it gives them time to practice.
i dunno, i guess you have other priorities, like "atomizing the new invading army"
rather than giggling at the animations.no, i don't work for IGN, but i do admit i'm an oddball.
Julian Delphiki
Anton's key
Oh yes it does, IMO.The three Courthouse UBs are the Sacrificial Altar, Ziggurat, and Rathaus. The Sac Altar comes long after all the important whipping is done, and its cost decrease isn't much.
Are you serious? How long do you postpone CoL (i use slavery many times at least till 1500-1600's).
It's quite good strategy for Monty to get CoL from Oracle, try to get HR rule asap and whip yourself (SA's) and a huge army quickly. After that it's nice to roleplay AI Monty
.
KMadCandy
giggling permanoob
Julian i definitely agree with you about the whipping. today i even used espionage to get the AIs out of emancipation so i could keep whipping. i was researching industrialism at the time, so it was pretty late in the game *giggle*. that was one of the lucky games where the slave revolt event never happened .
.Polycrates
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Someone is ragging on my beloved impis?
In my current game (emperor aggressive ai raging barbs), it's 600BC, and I've brought the three most powerful empires on my continent (two of them very distant) to their knees with a grand total of about 5 impis, while I was simultaneously fighting off more barbs than I've ever seen before. And those empires are never getting back up. My impis have also stolen about ten workers and escorted them home through miles of barb-infested jungle, killed a couple of settlers, killed a bunch of archers in the field that were moving to reinforce endangered cities, forced those empires to keep their units sitting at home rather than trying to attack my territory, kept my huge sprawling empire safe from immense hordes of barbarians, provided me lots of money from pillaged improvements, scouted out masses of territory, acted as healers, and a few more are about to help out as mobile happiness stations when I get monarchy. They even took out two border cities, which I thought was quite nice. The only downside is that three big wars (including the subsequent capture of a protective hilltop holy city capital with a couple of axes who came along later) have only netted me just over 20 great general points. Saves on the war weariness though
Game before that, a guy on the other side of the continent was about twice the score and power graph of everyone else at about 1AD, with a couple of archers and about 3 axes/swords per city (and he had a lot of cities), and was threatening to run away with the game. Sent about 5 impis at him, lost one, but his score flatlined after that and he was never really a serious threat again. Five axes or swords might have gotten me one crappy border city for a couple of turns until he captured it back and barely harmed him in the slightest.
If you're bashing impis up against decently-defended cities, then you deserve to get crap results out of them. That's what swordsmen are for. If you're just using them as escorts, you're wasting their potential. If you're using them to utterly destroy an empire's ability to function, while tying up their entire war machine with only a handful of units, then you'll find that there's no sweeter unit in the game. Its housekeeping and escort abilities are just a beautiful bonus.
In my current game (emperor aggressive ai raging barbs), it's 600BC, and I've brought the three most powerful empires on my continent (two of them very distant) to their knees with a grand total of about 5 impis, while I was simultaneously fighting off more barbs than I've ever seen before. And those empires are never getting back up. My impis have also stolen about ten workers and escorted them home through miles of barb-infested jungle, killed a couple of settlers, killed a bunch of archers in the field that were moving to reinforce endangered cities, forced those empires to keep their units sitting at home rather than trying to attack my territory, kept my huge sprawling empire safe from immense hordes of barbarians, provided me lots of money from pillaged improvements, scouted out masses of territory, acted as healers, and a few more are about to help out as mobile happiness stations when I get monarchy. They even took out two border cities, which I thought was quite nice. The only downside is that three big wars (including the subsequent capture of a protective hilltop holy city capital with a couple of axes who came along later) have only netted me just over 20 great general points. Saves on the war weariness though
Game before that, a guy on the other side of the continent was about twice the score and power graph of everyone else at about 1AD, with a couple of archers and about 3 axes/swords per city (and he had a lot of cities), and was threatening to run away with the game. Sent about 5 impis at him, lost one, but his score flatlined after that and he was never really a serious threat again. Five axes or swords might have gotten me one crappy border city for a couple of turns until he captured it back and barely harmed him in the slightest.
If you're bashing impis up against decently-defended cities, then you deserve to get crap results out of them. That's what swordsmen are for. If you're just using them as escorts, you're wasting their potential. If you're using them to utterly destroy an empire's ability to function, while tying up their entire war machine with only a handful of units, then you'll find that there's no sweeter unit in the game. Its housekeeping and escort abilities are just a beautiful bonus.
Monkeyfinger
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That's nice.
Julian Delphiki
Anton's key
Julian i definitely agree with you about the whipping. today i even used espionage to get the AIs out of emancipation so i could keep whipping. i was researching industrialism at the time, so it was pretty late in the game *giggle*. that was one of the lucky games where the slave revolt event never happened
Christo Redentor is also great for quick 1-turn whipping sprees during late-game, then emacnipnation penalty doesn't really matter.
(And Ikhandas are cool
).Polycrates
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Yes yes, very clever, but have you tried early pillaging/harassment with a bunch of chariots lately? Against an aggressive AI with good road networks and a whole bunch of copper/horse/iron units? Send a whole bunch of chariots into the heart of enemy territory these days, and you'll be lucky to pillage more than a square or two before they're all chomped out. The AI is much better at stopping pillaging now than back in the vanilla days of two archers per city that never stepped outside for a second. You can pillage a bit of their periphery, sure, maybe take a worker or two, but aggressive pillaging of massive areas of the heartland is guaranteed to cost a hell of a lot of your units, and you'll probably spend more time running away than actually pillaging anyway. Even Immortals and War Chariots are pretty fragile. Equally, you can't really just keep them patrolling through or bunkering down safely in enemy heartland to ensure that it all stays pillaged.
On the other hand, you only really need a few impis even for a big empire, and if you're sensible with them, they're fairly invulnerable. The terrain movement thing is extremely valuable too.
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