Is the Waffen SS a "bad" organisation?

[nonconformist]

Do you consider the Waffen SS as a "bad" organisation? Granted, the Waffen SS was responsible for various soldier muders, such as Wormhoudt and Malmedy crossroads, but the many of the Waffen SS, by 1945, were conscripts. The whole "Waffen S.S are the German western elite" is Rubbish. The SS:
Conscripted, or took volunteers from everywhere, including Muslims, Latvians and Spaniards.
At their highest peak in military prowess were little, if better at all, than most units of the Wehrmacht.

Also, a lot of the SS were 16 yeear old indoctrinated kids given a Panzerfaust and told to blow tanks up on a bicycle. The Waffen SS cannot be bunched together and called criminl. Various units were criminal, but others had relatively good records.

 

[zjl56]

The SS was a terrible organization. Himrich Himler was its leader and he was one of the people who controled things like the Holocoast. The SS was a bad organization throughout the time of its reign. Though many people of in the SS were just following orders. The Nazi elites brainwashed many people into doing their evil bidding and the SS was full of brainwashed Nazis.

 

[Stefan Haertel]

Is the Waffen SS a "bad" organisation?

Yes. Name one organization in human history that is more qualified to represent the abyss of the human mind.

 

[zjl56]

Yes. Name one organization in human history that is more qualified to represent the abyss of the human mind.

I know annother the KGB.

 

[Oruc]

i thought the KGB was just spies

 

[NP300]

Do you consider the Waffen SS as a "bad" organisation? Granted, the Waffen SS was responsible for various soldier muders, such as Wormhoudt and Malmedy crossroads, but the many of the Waffen SS, by 1945, were conscripts. The whole "Waffen S.S are the German western elite" is Rubbish. The SS:
Conscripted, or took volunteers from everywhere, including Muslims, Latvians and Spaniards.
At their highest peak in military prowess were little, if better at all, than most units of the Wehrmacht.

Also, a lot of the SS were 16 yeear old indoctrinated kids given a Panzerfaust and told to blow tanks up on a bicycle. The Waffen SS cannot be bunched together and called criminl. Various units were criminal, but others had relatively good records.

Yes, the Waffen SS was international. There were volunteers from almost every country in Europe. There were even volunteers from India in the "Indische Freiwilligen Legion der Waffen-SS".

The SS often performed better in battle than the Heer. I think it was Eisenhower, who after a battle with an SS division, said that "as usual" they fought to the last man. I don't think the Waffen SS was any worse than any other wartime organization. It is hated because it resisted the Allies more strongly and effectively than other German organizations, such as by fighting to the death.

Every side committed atrocities in that terrible war. But few seem to hate the American Air Force, which murdered hundreds of thousands, if not millions of innocent civilians and non-combatants, including the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Of course, hsitory is written by the victors.

I very much doubt the Waffen SS ever accepted a 16 year old. They had very strict admission standards. The 16 year olds might have been in the Volksturm or Werwolf units towards the end of the war.

 

[zjl56]

Spys are bad but they carried out Stalins orders to put millions in labor camps.

 

[dgfred]

The SS was TOUGH in battle. They were always dedicated and usually had
better and more equipment than their Army brothers. Their casualty rate
was always extremely high as compared to other units and they were given
the hardest task. The allies knew they were in for a serious fight when they
were up against the SS troops.

 

[bombshoo]

I agree that the SS was horrible, but I think they were mostly just brainwashed, probaly alot like some of the members of Al Queida or and many other terrorist groups. The Nazis needed a group they could relay on outside the German army, someone they knew would fight to the death for Hitler, and by the end huge parts of the German army were drafted and couldn't be expected to do much, espeically when they were 15 or 50 year olds.

 

[privatehudson]

I very much doubt the Waffen SS ever accepted a 16 year old. They had very strict admission standards. The 16 year olds might have been in the Volksturm or Werwolf units towards the end of the war.

I would disagree, as the war went on, the admission standards all but disapeared, and all formations had 16 and 17 year olds as standard. Hitler Jugend Division certainly used and recruited from 17 year olds at the minimum and some of those could concievably have lied about their age.

However, the Waffen SS have been strongly linked through it's heirarchy (not just Himmler either) to the events in the concentration camps, and most of the formations were involved in retaliation attacks and massacres at some point in their history. They certainly would have also been involved in rounding up communists and Jews in Russia as did the Wermacht, and more than likely involved in slaughtering the same during the campaign, witness the Einstatsgruppen.

It would be a mistake to label anyone who fought in the Waffen SS as a warcriminal, most were simply soldiers caught up in the terrible circumstances of the time, some didn't even have a choice about their membership of this group. It would also be a mistake to force the Waffen SS to shoulder the blame for the atrocities in campaigns and the Holocaust overall. The Waffen SS though were still, as an organisation infamous and have a disgusting record.

As for the worst record, you could easily say that the Germans and Russians fought their own little slaughter contest in the east throughout the war as to who could be the worst. Overall it's impossible to say, we know more about the SS crimes for sure, but information that does come out about the NKVD and Beria during WWII would seem to indicate that the Russians could match this with morbid ease.

I would add though that there is a distinct difference between bombing civilian/millitary targets with the aim (even if it did not) of speeding up the end of the war and the cold blooded slaughter of millions with no such aim.

 

[Marla_Singer]

Do you consider the Waffen SS as a "bad" organisation?

Of course not ! I've always said that was just what the US needed !

 

[privatehudson]

Well it probably got a few of them anyway

 

[sabo]

Every side committed atrocities in that terrible war. But few seem to hate the American Air Force, which murdered hundreds of thousands, if not millions of innocent civilians and non-combatants, including the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Of course, hsitory is written by the victors.

As far as Nagasaki and Hiroshima goes, there is an old saying in this country "If you can't stand the heat, then get out of the kitchen" If Japan wasn't prepared to feel the full force of the USA upon them, they shouldn't have started shooting at us first, Bombing and killing from an airplane is a little different then shooting someone from behind and throwing them into a ditch, or gassing and burning them. If bombing is a war crime as you say then shouldn't EVERY country be accountable for war crimes? You seem to like to point out the USA for some reason. Do you think that maybe the USA has the most bombing victims because the USA won the war????

 

[Darth_Pugwash]

Do you consider the Waffen SS as a "bad" organisation? Granted, the Waffen SS was responsible for various soldier muders, such as Wormhoudt and Malmedy crossroads, but the many of the Waffen SS, by 1945, were conscripts. The whole "Waffen S.S are the German western elite" is Rubbish. The SS:
Conscripted, or took volunteers from everywhere, including Muslims, Latvians and Spaniards.
At their highest peak in military prowess were little, if better at all, than most units of the Wehrmacht.

Also, a lot of the SS were 16 yeear old indoctrinated kids given a Panzerfaust and told to blow tanks up on a bicycle. The Waffen SS cannot be bunched together and called criminl. Various units were criminal, but others had relatively good records.

I think we can all agree that the Waffen SS was an utterly disgusting organization.

The whole "Waffen S.S are the German western elite" is Rubbish.

The 'eliteness' of the Waffen SS is difficult to measure becuase the quality of the Waffen SS units varied massively.

 

[Hotpoint]

One of my Uncles (by marriage) was actually in the Waffen SS. When I asked him why he joined he said it was originally because you got better pay than the regular army and the uniform made it easy to get girls. Additionally having grown up in Nazi Germany and after a few years in the Hitler Youth your politics and world-view would tend to be seriously warped. The hand that rocks the cradle rules the world as Adolf said himself.

Some of the formations weren't really all that different from normal Wehrmacht formations in behaviour. Others were quite simply the scum of the earth and dominated by fanatical mass-murdering war-criminals.

 

[zjl56]

The SS was like Hitlers elite fighters formed from people who had been brainwashed by things like the hitler youth.

 

[Symphony D.]

Every side committed atrocities in that terrible war. But few seem to hate the American Air Force, which murdered hundreds of thousands, if not millions of innocent civilians and non-combatants, including the nuking of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Of course, hsitory is written by the victors.

It's strange how that's always pointed out but the fact the Japanese were conducting chemical and biological tests on the Chinese civilian population isn't. Did you know they had enough Anthrax, Black Plague, etc. (volume wise) to wipe out the entire human race at war's end? Did you know the Japanese government is to this day still in denial about the attrocities Japan committed in WWII? I have nothing against the Japanese at all, but that is selective memory.

The fact that the use of atomic weaponry saved something on the order of 4 million Japanese from starvation that would have resulted from an invasion, not to mention actual combat casualties, plus an estimated 500,000+ American casualties (and the division of Japan into North and South like Korea, since the Soviets were gradually ramping up for an invasion of their own) is beyond the point.

The use of nuclear weapons saved lives in the long run. The Holocaust, Rape of Nanking, Bataan Death March, and Stalin's purges can make no such claims. Dresden and other such incidents are another story, however, that's total warfare, and both sides engaged in it. Do unto others, and all that.

As for the SS, the entire organization was just rotten. Some, likely even most individuals within it were decent people but the organization as a whole was simply the scum of the earth.

 

[Ramius75]

Yes. Name one organization in human history that is more qualified to represent the abyss of the human mind.

Yes. Company 731 of the Imperial Japanese army. on the other hand... The whole Imperial Japanese army.

Ramius

 

[Zardnaar]

i thought the KGB was just spies

No they were in charge of the Siberian work/death camps, border security, torture, interrogation, etc.

 

[rilnator]

The SS started out simply as Hitler's personal body guard (LAH). But they took on a new role during the Night of the Long Knives doing most of the killing and running the camps the unfortunates were sent to. At this point the Army supported them as they got rid of the SA and made good Hitler's promise to the generals that the army would be Germany's sole bearer of arms.
The LAH grew and became mechanised, and then armoured. Soon other SS regiments (eventually to become divisions) sprung up. The SS took a large part in rounding up anti Nazis once Czechoslovakia and Austria were occupied. When Poland too was over run the Nazi hierachy decided to rule it with an iron fist. The SS and other organisations were given chief responsibility for this.
During the battle of France several British prisoners were shot in a barn in Belgium and for the next 5 years the SS carried many more acts of this nature throughout Europe, as well as being involved in the transportation and murder of millions of Jews.
As we all know they were also very able soldiers, supposedly better trained, more obedient and better armed than their army counterparts. Karkhov, Kursk, Caen, Arnhem and the Ardennes are just a handful of battles where the SS fought with distinction.
However, right from the start the were there to do Hitler's dirty work, and as we all know Hitler was evil. So, as an organisation yes they were evil.