Is there a civ that you think is overrated?

[Galbias]

Agreed on the Kurgan and the Saka Horse Archer--neither is that impressive. The latter is sometimes buildable but only because you get two for the price of one. The unit itself is pretty squishy and short-ranged.

But I think you're way underrating People of the Steppe (which gives free cavalry units). There's so much you can do with this. First, it lets you get your horsemen rush going considerably earlier, which has a snowball effect. Second, it lets you train enough horsemen quickly to go after multiple targets at once--and really, there's no reason for Scythia not to do this. I agree that you don't need a ton of units to take out a Deity AI in Civ VI, but with a ton of fast-moving units Scythia can strike in multiple places. The ability also has some relevance later in the game, because it lets Scythia form cavalry/helicopter corps and armies very easily. That's good.

The other thing is that Killer of Cyrus (which gives healing on kills and a combat bonus vs. wounded units) is not merely good--it is the best unique ability in the game by a mile. It basically transforms every single military unit you ever build into an incredibly powerful UU. If kills only healed 25 health and the bonus strength against injured units went away, this ability would still be really good. As it is, it's broken. You can fight incredibly aggressively and your units will just never die. By the way, it also applies to religious combat and makes Scythia probably the top choice for Religious Victory, too.

As someone who hasn't played Scythia, I agree with this assessment. With People of the Steppe and the cavalry prod policy you can churn out mountains of Horsemen, enough that you can easily get away with throwing your less experienced ones at cities and using them as cannon fodder. Except it's probably not even going to be very hard to keep them alive thanks to Killer of Cyrus. Pity you can't gift units to CS and corps come in so late though.

Germany gets rolled over by the big 3 though. Super vulnerable early.

The extra military policy means you can slot, say, both the barbarian bonus and the unit production bonus at the same time, so that's something. But yeah, the early game pre-Hansa is definitely their biggest weakness.

 

[komodowaran]

As someone who hasn't played Scythia, I agree with this assessment. With People of the Steppe and the cavalry prod policy you can churn out mountains of Horsemen, enough that you can easily get away with throwing your less experienced ones at cities and using them as cannon fodder. Except it's probably not even going to be very hard to keep them alive thanks to Killer of Cyrus. Pity you can't gift units to CS and corps come in so late though.
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Well Scythias combination of UU is so strong that they got no point in teching ever for universitys since they just need to reach cavalry to win the game since nothing can stop the Scythia Cavalery spam
Especialy combined that u can faith buy units what u get from there building and tha the Cavalery heals on kils

the 2. think is that Cavalery never get's obsolite since u can easly use them tu push vs tanks since u just got 2x more + stronger ones and on top of that they are cheaper than tanks and since u can spread them out they don't get wrecked by nukes so hard
so all Scythia needs to to is get some comercal hubs up then go Cavalery and nothing wil stop them from taking over the world since in Multiplayer no one has found a way to stop Cavalery spam of Scythia so far

( and jes Scythia and Russia are the ondly civ's that can kill a line of AT crew with Cavalery)

 

[Mr. Shadows]

Apprenticeship has an easy inspiration and it's something you should be beelining for even if you're not Germany, it's still pretty early in the game and you get more extra production faster than you would with IZ. The extra district is pretty crap on them though, I agree there, it's mostly just Hansas and the Military Policy slot.

Apprenticeship always comes early for me but you don't gain much by bee-lining it. Even after you unlock and build your first hansa all you get is the (never game changing) adjacency bonus. Then you have to invest in the workshop which gives you a nice boost even if it does take a while to pay for itself. The IZ isn't that big a deal until you have multiple factories, and that unlocks quite late. Having any unique district is a solid bonus, and the hansa IS (imho) the best UD but districts don't help you expand in the early game. Early expansion is what causes you to snowball (and thus win) regardless of whether or not you have a UD. To that end all Germany gets is the extra military card, which is tangible but modest.

 

[Resipsa]

I voted America, I think people overvalue the +5 on continent, the rest are underwhelming bonuses.

 

[komodowaran]

I voted America, I think people overvalue the +5 on continent, the rest are underwhelming bonuses.

U realy think players over value that ? i nearly never see somone pick them since they got basicly no bonuses exept in a 1v1

 

[Soffacet]

The roads/TP are a throwaway ability. Rome crushes everyone early. Filthyrobot rated them 7th overall and then complains every game that no other civ can beat them.

I don't understand how people keep listing Gorgo with the elites. They aren't even top 10. The way victory conditions are balanced I'd take the 10th best science civ over the best culture one.

Rome is definitely bananas. Free Monuments and Baths let them outpeace almost anyone and Oligarchy/GG Legions let them outwar almost anyone. I hate it when people harp on other lesser aspects of a kit, as if that detracts from the strong aspects. They are a strong candidate for best civ period atm.

As for Gorgo, I don't even know what you're referring to in terms of "science civs" and "culture civs." Surely you are not referring to MP tourism victory? Science and culture are both important for domination, or any VC. More culture means better, faster cards and more slots to put those cards in. Cards lead directly back to core yields. Beating other players to Governments, Serfdom, Craftsmen, Rationalism, Corps, etc are huge deals that dramatically change the ramp of your empire.

Gorgo. I don't know why people think she's better than Pericles. Compared to Gorgo, he's on a whole other tier imo.

I suppose there is always a chance that Pericles might be better on any particular map, depending on barbarian spawns, city state quests, the way other players allocate their envoys, etc. But on average Gorgo is far superior. Unless she gets extremely unlucky with (lack of) barbarians, she blazes through early policies faster than anyone. Which matters. A lot. I'd say in most games Thermopylae will have generated hundreds of culture before Surrounded by Glory will have generated a single point. Even if SBG eventually overtakes it in total yield, the snowballing effect of the earlier policies will endure.

I see the Greeks listed as top tier sometimes and I don't quite agree with that. The free policy slot is quite good and the Acropolis is probably a net positive (though it makes city placement rather annoying). But the Hoplite is rather bad. I don't think they match the likes of Germany/Rome/Scythia/Sumeria on balance. Scythia and Sumeria have abilities so overpowered that playing them is a total joke. Germany has stronger economic abilities than Greece. Rome has perhaps equal economic abilities and a much stronger UU.

Maybe if they buff spearmen in the future (that's definitely needed), Hoplites will become useful.

See above, referring the act of harping on the lesser aspects of a kit.

Haven't played them yet but Greece stands out to me as being good but probably not worthy of top tier. Acropolis's Hill requirement turns a solid UD into one of the weaker ones since Hill tiles are so important, Spearmen are awkward due to their significant penalty against melee so Hoplites are limited, and given the fetish AIs have for conquering CSes on higher levels, Pericles's % Culture bonus will be difficult to get too much from, probably going to average around 10%.

Apprenticeship has an easy inspiration and it's something you should be beelining for even if you're not Germany, it's still pretty early in the game and you get more extra production faster than you would with IZ. The extra district is pretty crap on them though, I agree there, it's mostly just Hansas and the Military Policy slot.

It's actually impossible for a UD to be bad. Half-price, uncapped, and superior effects make UDs at least 4x as strong as generic districts no matter what. The hill requirement is easily met.

Similarly, Germany's extra slot is cannot be bad. It's not useful right away but that doesn't mean that it's bad. There is a huge swath of time before neighborhoods where a generic civ, or even a civ with a UD, would build more districts if they could, but are capped.

I voted America, I think people overvalue the +5 on continent, the rest are underwhelming bonuses.

I think if anything, most people have been underrating the +5. A lot of people rate USA down in the trash tier with France and Spain, meanwhile there are experienced deity players debating whether or not the +5 is enough by itself to put America into tier 1.

 

[jaegybomb]

Yea, people always try to sell the fact that they are good at tourism wins when talking about Greece.

 

[Resipsa]

I think if anything, most people have been underrating the +5. A lot of people rate USA down in the trash tier with France and Spain, meanwhile there are experienced deity players debating whether or not the +5 is enough by itself to put America into tier 1.

most people rate the US as an average Civ comparable to Kongo or another in that tier I have America above Spain and Denmark but they aren't better than France. France's x2 spy is fantastic for all non domination victory types. The new spies are flexible and can help the player reach tech parity with the AI and help you achieve faster victory times.

 

[jaegybomb]

Most people rate America bottom 1/4. The +5 is legit but more defense focused. It would be the perfect ability for ensuring your survival until mid game if it was on a mid game powerhouse like guaranteed defender of the faith on Russia or a better version of Germany's policy slot. America is not a mid game powerhouse though and that is when their abilities fall apart. You can't timing push with their UU because it can't be upgraded into, legacy bonuses take forever to build up and are pretty inconsequential, and tourism is not very good right now.

 

[CaiusDrewart]

I like America a lot. Yes, there are a lot of worthless and distracting bonuses. The national park stuff is irrelevant. Founding Fathers does almost nothing. I hope a future patch will make legacy bonuses meaningful, but as is, even when doubled they are not significant. I bet you could play 100 Deity games as America and the P-51 would not make the difference between victory and defeat--or even significantly speed up your win time--in a single one. The Rough Rider is pretty lame, too.

But the +5 own-continent combat bonus is really great. If you play Continents and Pangaea maps, I'd say you have another civ on your continent roughly 80-90% of the time. It's not at all uncommon to share a continent with 2 other civs. So this means that in the majority of games, for those critical early wars of conquest, basically every unit you have is a unique! American swordsmen fight as well as Roman Legions. American archers are the best in the game! Getting those first wars of conquest in successfully puts you in great shape to win the rest of the game. I'd say America has the fourth best ancient-era rush in the game--only the Sumerians, Scythians, and Aztecs do it better. Since the early rush is the premier way to win quickly and consistently on Deity, that's a huge deal. The UA is also consistently useful for barb defense, though that's a minor thing.

The Film Studio is also quite good. 100% tourism is an enormous bonus and way stronger than any other unique building in the game. It's the most significant tourism booster in the game--you'll get more tourism out of this than England gets from its archaeological museums or France gets from its wonders. Admittedly, even a Deity AI is not going to put up much a fight against your tourism, so you probably don't need the Film Studio to win, but this building will still significantly speed up your win times.

Overall, I'd put America Tier B--behind Scythia/Sumeria/Germany/Rome/Russia, who are just ridiculous, but alongside Civs like the Aztecs/China/Arabia/Greece and ahead of Civs like Kongo/Japan/England/Brazil.

 

[Galbias]

Apprenticeship always comes early for me but you don't gain much by bee-lining it. Even after you unlock and build your first hansa all you get is the (never game changing) adjacency bonus. Then you have to invest in the workshop which gives you a nice boost even if it does take a while to pay for itself. The IZ isn't that big a deal until you have multiple factories, and that unlocks quite late. Having any unique district is a solid bonus, and the hansa IS (imho) the best UD but districts don't help you expand in the early game. Early expansion is what causes you to snowball (and thus win) regardless of whether or not you have a UD. To that end all Germany gets is the extra military card, which is tangible but modest.

For non-Germany players beelining it is more about the free +1p to all mines.

The way the game is designed currently, production is in very high demand and Germany has a nice bonus to it. But the early game is also vitally important with how front-loaded higher difficulties are, I still think Germany is one of the best but I need to play more to get a feel for they compare to some of the other early UUs and whatnot.

The Film Studio is also quite good. 100% tourism is an enormous bonus and way stronger than any other unique building in the game. It's the most significant tourism booster in the game--you'll get more tourism out of this than England gets from its archaeological museums or France gets from its wonders. Admittedly, even a Deity AI is not going to put up much a fight against your tourism, so you probably don't need the Film Studio to win, but this building will still significantly speed up your win times.

Isn't the bonus only valid in Modern era though? I think Computers (Atomic Era) doubles your Tourism anyways.

 

[Mr. Shadows]

For non-Germany players beelining it is more about the free +1p to all mines.

The way the game is designed currently, production is in very high demand and Germany has a nice bonus to it. But the early game is also vitally important with how front-loaded higher difficulties are, I still think Germany is one of the best but I need to play more to get a feel for they compare to some of the other early UUs and whatnot.



Isn't the bonus only valid in Modern era though? I think Computers (Atomic Era) doubles your Tourism anyways.

Apprenticeship is always a priority for me, but when I say bee-line I mean literally the bare minimum number of techs to get there. I don't know what that order is off the top of my head but it's not important when I'm teching the basics like archer, the wheel and horseback riding. It's not something I think about during the first 20 turns. Don't get me wrong about Germany, once you get them off the ground they're super sweet. You don't have to make any hard decisions about districts because you get two for free, and you get a hammer boost in a game that is ruled by hammers. That's sexy. By the time you get your factories up and running you can probably do whatever you want in no time at all. The thing is Sumeria, Scythia, Rome and America have bonuses that help you clobber your neighbors before you hit the Renaisance. That means you can found more cities earlier so they have time to grow. It also means that if any of them start next to Germany (in the hands of skilled humans) they have a telling advantage. That's going to win more games than Germany's ability to turn into a gem if no one stops them for 100+ turns. As to the film studio, it stacks with the bonus from computers, and it really does make CVs a breeze. It's strong enough to end the game, so it's a very nice bonus. It's no where near as awesome as the +5 continental bonus though.

 

[CaiusDrewart]

Isn't the bonus only valid in Modern era though? I think Computers (Atomic Era) doubles your Tourism anyways.

My understanding of the Film Studio is that it applies once you and the Civ in question are both in the Modern Era, and continues applying as either Civ progresses--so it would stack with Computers. I'm pretty sure it worked that way in my games, but not 100%. Anyone know for certain?

By the way, I think that one difficulty in making tier lists or pinpointing overrated Civs right now is just how easy this game is. I mean, let's say Scythia is the strongest Civ on a Pangaea map. With a random start an expert player would win on Deity with that Civ what, 95% of the time? A little higher? Whereas with Norway (indisputably the weakest Civ on a Pangaea map) a very strong player would win perhaps 90% of the time or so? That's not a huge difference, and it boils down to the game being so easy that bonuses aren't really necessary, and good players need to be very unlucky to lose. Whereas in Civ IV the difference in win rate for an expert player with Huyana Capac vs. with Charlemagne would be quite large indeed, I think. Once Civ VI becomes harder it will be easier to judge the Civs.

 

[Mr. Shadows]

My understanding of the Film Studio is that it applies once you and the Civ in question are both in the Modern Era, and continues applying as either Civ progresses--so it would stack with Computers. I'm pretty sure it worked that way in my games, but not 100%. Anyone know for certain?

By the way, I think that one difficulty in making tier lists or pinpointing overrated Civs right now is just how easy this game is. I mean, let's say Scythia is the strongest Civ on a Pangaea map. With a random start an expert player would win on Deity with that Civ what, 95% of the time? A little higher? Whereas with Norway (indisputably the weakest Civ on a Pangaea map) a very strong player would win perhaps 90% of the time or so? That's not a huge difference, and it boils down to the game being so easy that bonuses aren't really necessary, and good players need to be very unlucky to lose. Whereas in Civ IV the difference in win rate for an expert player with Huyana Capac vs. with Charlemagne would be quite large indeed, I think. Once Civ VI becomes harder it will be easier to judge the Civs.

I don't have hard numbers for you but I finished an American CV yesterday and I watched it happen. I checked when I started building film studios (turn 250 or so?) and although I had a number of tourists it was maybe 1/4 of what I needed. My victory clocked in on turn 291 (that I am sure of) and I watched my tourism soar from 200-something to 600+ in those 40 turns. They work as advertised Other than that I agree completely that the game is too easy to know for sure, at least in SP. MP will be competitive no matter how unbalanced the game might be. As you said about IV, in V Poland will win FAR more often than Byzantium. That's because a Deity BNW victory is hard to achieve. It's going to take some practice. I just laughed my way to victory sub-300 turns on Deity after only a dozen or so games since it was released. I'm not that awesome, this game is too easy.