Is there any use to navies?

[playshogi]

I just discovered a neat little use for a navy in my 2CC (Space win) game. I put a musketman on a caravel and grab undefended AI workers off the coasts. You can use any land unit to attack workers directly from your ship. Works best on archi map. Of course, 1 ship isn't exactly a navy!

 

[gmaharriet]

I just discovered a neat little use for a navy in my 2CC (Space win) game. I put a musketman on a caravel and grab undefended AI workers off the coasts.

Doesn't that mean the AIs will declare war on you? I think they're rather attached to their workers.

 

[playshogi]

I'm already at war, usually because I refused some demand. The AI only protects workers near enemy land units, but is oblivious to the approach by sea.

 

[ChuckDizzle]

Navies are all but useless.
The next time you play build a stack of 25 artillery instead of 10 Battleships, land them all in a stack next to an enemy city, with a couple of tanks and some Infantry for defence. They should take the city within a couple of turns and then could move on to the next city, regardless of where it was, while your battleships would be left floundering in the ocean with nothing to do.

You say this, but how will you land your troops without a navy? Even if your navy is mostly transports and a few destroyers for escorts, it's still a navy. This implies that navies always have a use, except perhaps on pangea maps, but then again, there's always a couple islands that can be taken over.

Stick the stack on a hill/mountain and it will be hard to shift. A battleship out at sea has a 50/50 chance of being lost if a destroyer comes along, costing you 200 resources. They are just too expensive for the utility you get from them.

If you rely only on battleships. A Civ navy really requires combined arms to be effective. You screen with destroyers, and cruisers, while your main battle group remains protected.

 

[gunkulator]

You say this, but how will you land your troops without a navy? Even if your navy is mostly transports and a few destroyers for escorts, it's still a navy.

Not really. By navy, most people are referring to a water borne fighting force, not a water taxi service. Most players don't bother with navies in Civ3 because there just isn't much that they can accomplish. If you plan on fighting to win, you need to fight on land. Significantly, a domination win requires no control over the seas.

 

[66Scorpio]

I usually play with continents and 70% water. I don't invest in a sizeable navy until I have already conquered my starting continent. The AIs will send dozens of ships to bombard my improvements but I usually have enough workers to repair them just as fast. They are more of a nuisance than anything. I will build a few to act as a convoy escort when I launch an invasion but that is about it. Two cruise missiles cost 120 shields and they can sink a 200 shield battleship.

I suspect this would all change with an archi map because you need to protect sea lanes to keep resources flowing to you cities. That isn't a problem with continents because the land masses are usually large enough such that they will have several, if not all of, the luxuries and strategic resources you need. Otherwise, you might as well still go island hopping with masses of horse or mechanized units and stomp the computer where it lives, rather than where it swims.

 

[henry k c]

Ships are usless unless you are on a archipelago. Use artillrey to scare AI boats away. They will usually run after only losing 1 hp.

 

[brennan]

I agree almost entirely with gunkulator,66Scorpio and henry k c. If anyone has missed it we have a similar thread in the strategy articles forum, where I have said much the same.

BTW use artillery to redline battleships, then Cruise them, that way it cost you only 60 resources. Hell I do it to frigates and ironclads if they show up too!

 

[Tman65]

Are navies critical no, do they have their uses yes. I don't think anybody would argue that you have to have a navy to win (unless you're on a 'pelago maybe?) but they can broaden the scope of the game.

On cruise missles -
One shot and gone...

 

[brennan]

On cruise missles -
One shot and gone...

Yeah, but the other bugger loses a Battleship

 

[Dunmer Reborn]

The Dromon is Great against coastal cities. I Played a regicide game against Portugal. Their capital (and king) were on the coast. I sent a fleet of dromon to go and bombard. I killed all of the spearmen (17) and weakened the surrounding areas. I sent in two swordmen and I defeated them.

 

[Cheeze]

1. Navy as a water fighting force isn't useful beyond escorting transports.
2. For the first half of the game there aren't really navies, just ships that can move troops.
3. Yes navies are important on archi maps (which I don't play much) but still only for transporting land troops.
4. By the time you get lethal bombard in the navy (besides dromons, which are very good) you're almost to bombers, which are better in every way. Perhaps the most powerful navy is one of aircraft carriers + escorts, once again in which the non-navy units (bombers) are the main offensive weapon and not the escort.

Final verdict - navies are useful (in getting the REAL military into the battle) but aside from archi maps, not at all essential.

I suspect they'd be better if amphibious assault was easier and more powerful, perhaps some sort of landing craft that allows any unit to go amphibious? By the time you get marines, tanks are better, even if you're transporting them it's run in, drop, run out. But now I suspect I'm just rambling.

 

[cleverhandle]

I'm sure it's been said somewhere in the many, many discussions about navies here, but I think that naval power would be tremendously cooler if there were a concept of attacking/defending shipping lanes. Right now you can blockade a harbor, but that's really not useful unless maybe you're playing on an archipelago map where an important resource is supplied by a single harbor. On continents there are quickly so many harbors that the blockading approach is pointless. But historically, this was a huge part of naval power (submarines, anyone?). I guess there could be some tricky coding and balancing involved in assigning units to shipping lanes - it wouldn't make much sense to have a destroyer in one location instantly attack a shipping lane on the other side of the world. But it seems doable, and would make navies way more useful as well as adding some interesting strategies to wars.

 

[Cheeze]

That gets me to thinking... This could get REALLY complicated, but I'm thinking some sort of trade winds/currents concept (historically where shipping lanes were obviously), where ships can move faster on that path and trade can only be conducted on that path. It's hard to think of an easy way to do it, however it WOULD create vocal points of trade, blockade and naval warfare... Not sure how it would work completely..

 

[brennan]

Give bonus commerce to cities with harbours, based upon the number or relative power of a civs navy. If your navy is more powerful than that of half the countries, get +1 commerce in each worked coastal/sea tile. If you are in top 25% get +2, if you have the strongest navy, get +3. This way naval strength represents your ability to protect trade from pirates and also the strength of your sea-faring tradition and the quality of your vessels and mariners... You can also harm your opponents' economy by naval action.

Ouch, how well would that stack with England's Comm/Sea/UU in Conquests?

 

[Fried Egg]

Navies prooved very useful in the continental game I just played.

My navy comprised of transport ships and two aircraft carriers for waging war against the English on another continent. I build destroyers for escorting my transport ships and crusers for escorting my carriers. In addition, I built a few subs for pushing back the fog so that I could see (and react to) enemy ships comming out of the blue. I also had four battleships for a combination of bombarding cities and tile improvements.

My battleships were able to deny the English of Rubber and horses by sailing around the far side of the continent and bombarding the tile that was just in land.

Now, you might say that I could have sent and landed troops or sent my carriers around to deny the English of those resources but they were all needed for my main invasion. If I had done, they would have needed escorts anyway...it would have been slower and costlier to do either.

I imagine that I might well have been able to go on and defeat England without denying them those resources first but it would have taken longer and been costlier. I considered the use of a navy a cost effective means of achieving my ends in a timely fashion. Not absolutely essential perhaps, but my navy played an important role.

 

[Jazzmail]

Navies may not be very useful beyond escorting transports and taking out enemy transports, but I absolutely love wiping out the AI navy.

I've had great fun using bombers on the expensive enemy fleets and then sinking the wounded with a just handful of subs.
Bombers are so brutally effective against battleships it's just perfect when the AI builds a large navy. I love it!

 

[Fried Egg]

The problem with the AI is that the ydon't build and use carriers...at least I've not seem them do so anyway. That might make things interesting...

 

[namliaM]

I just bombed a carrier to the ocean bottom in my COTM14 when the dumbs declared on me after moving the darned carrier into my sights. (just within range of the cultural border of one of the dutch towns.

I forget who they were... Not the Germans (long gone and dead) same for the french and babylon. It wasnt spain and obviously not the dutch, as previously we had an MA against the dutch. Lost the names of the last few...

I only had about 40 or so bombers so I bombed the hell out of it, after I widnesed their bombers take it out on one of the dutch cities that I had parked my tanks in front off...

Bombers rule, in particular if you opponent dont have any plains. I just wish they didnt take out improvements.

 

[axehaxe]

I always play Either Arch or Cont maps Gigantic size with 7 civs and I find it impossible to win a game without building navies. The point is to build huge stacks of frigates that surround an enemy civ and bombard everything on shore and prevent their ships from reaching large numbers. I noticed that one of the AI stupidities is that they attack with one frigate that they just built and lose it when I bring my stacks close to their cities - they never stack after you've destroyed all their ships and are building new ones in panic.