[C3C] Is This a Viable Start?

B-29_Bomber

Warlord
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Nov 10, 2016
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I'm playing with CCM 2.50 on a 250x250 Archipelago map. So no assuming easy access to additional land beyond this island.

Civ 3 CCM 2.50 - Viable Start.png

Should I restart or continue on?
 
Plenty of fish for growing your cities. No rivers that I can see, but that's not unusual for archipelago maps. You'll be building aqueducts to get to size 7 and above. What's your preferred victory condition? Does the CCM mod make it easier to send out "suicide galleys" to find the other islands?
 
Plenty of fish for growing your cities. No rivers that I can see, but that's not unusual for archipelago maps. You'll be building aqueducts to get to size 7 and above. What's your preferred victory condition? Does the CCM mod make it easier to send out "suicide galleys" to find the other islands?
1) World Domination (I have a secret desire to rule the world!).

2) Dunno, just started playing with CCM and am not familiar with the tactic of "suicide galleys". Could you explain?
 
In normal civ 3 the galley is the first ship a player can build, but they are endangered to sink when ending their movement on a sea- or ocean terrain tile. When a player does a move with that ship ending on sea- or ocean terrain, it is on a "suicide mission", as it can sink in this case - but if it survives, there is the chance of an early contact with other civs.

CCM 2.50 holds much, much more ships than standard C3C. When playing the US, your first ship will be the scout ship. In CCM 2.50 the handling of units is much more tactical compared to standard C3C, as the movement costs for units are much higher (mostly doubled) in combination with movement bonuses for different units on different terrains. For early ships this means, that your scout ships can move normally on coastal terrain (as they here have a movement bonus) but are slowed down on sea- or ocean terrain.

With tech Seafaring, you will have access to merchantships, which also can sink on sea- and ocean terrain, but can move normally on coastal- and sea terrain. There are civs which have better boats even in era1, per example the longboats for Scandinavia (Vikings) or the hokuleas for Australia/Oceania, which are only sinking when ending on a ocean tile.

The best ships in that era are the ancient (and later medieval) explorer ships, autoproduced by the SW School of Navigators. These ships are intended to find the contact to other civs and to withstand some battles with barbarian ships. CCM 2.50 has no contact and map trading, as this in my eyes dims down the fun in exploring the world and the multitude of unnecessary map trading popup messages in the later phases of the game in my eyes are somewhat annoying.

As capitals can trade directly in CCM 2.50 (the palace - see the symbol of coins next to Washington - and additionally some SWs are holding the airtrade-flag) and harbors, different to CCM1, have the water trade flag, trade could be somewhat more easy compared to standard C3C. A big advantage for beginners could be, that on your island you will not run in early confrontations with enslavers (autoproduced invisible HN units), as dealing with them needs some experience in using the advantages of the map and the movement handicaps of the enslavers.

Astonishingly, we never made games on Archipelago maps, but nearly every time on Continent maps with big land masses or Pangaea maps, to meet the demanding early combat with the invisible HN units of other civs (enslavers, later holy men and lawyers).

I would say, continue your game and even post a save file of your current game.
 
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In normal civ 3 the galley is the first ship a player can build, but they are endangered to sink when ending their movement on a sea- or ocean terrain tile. When a player does a move with that ship ending on sea- or ocean terrain, it is on a "suicide mission", as it can sink in this case - but if it survives, there is the chance of an early contact with other civs.

CCM 2.50 holds much, much more ships than standard C3C. When playing the US, your first ship will be the scout ship. In CCM 2.50 the handling of units is much more tactical compared to standard C3C, as the movement costs for units are much higher (mostly doubled) in combination with movement bonuses for different units on different terrains. For early ships this means, that your scout ships can move normally on coastal terrain (as they here have a movement bonus) but are slowed down on sea- or ocean terrain.

With tech Seafaring, you will have access to merchantships, which also can sink on sea- and ocean terrain, but can move normally on coastal- and sea terrain. There are civs which have better boats even in era1, per example the longboats for Scandinavia (Vikings) or the hokuleas for Australia/Oceania, which are only sinking when ending on a ocean tile.

The best ships in that era are the ancient (and later medieval) explorer ships, autoproduced by the SW School of Navigators. These ships are intended to find the contact to other civs and to withstand some battles with barbarian ships. CCM 2.50 has no contact and map trading, as this in my eyes dims down the fun in exploring the world and the multitude of unnecessary map trading popup messages in the later phases of the game in my eyes are somewhat annoying.

As capitals can trade directly in CCM 2.50 (the palace - see the symbol of coins next to Washington - and additionally some SWs are holding the airtrade-flag) and harbors, different to CCM1, have the water trade flag, trade could be somewhat more easy compared to standard C3C. A big advantage for beginners could be, that on your island you will not run in early confrontations with enslavers (autoproduced invisible HN units), as dealing with them needs some experience in using the advantages of the map and the movement handicaps of the enslavers.

Astonishingly, we never made games on Archipelago maps, but nearly every time on Continent maps with big land masses or Pangaea maps, to meet the demanding early combat with the invisible HN units of other civs (enslavers, later holy men and lawyers).

I would say, continue your game and even post a save file of your current game.

Thank you for the explanation! Mind you I already knew about Galleys sinking in sea and ocean tiles, but everything else was definitely new info!

And yeah, I just ran into enslavers. I've been building cities on an big island with several civs on it and just recently Detroit was destroyed by an Indian Enslaver and Houston almost got destroyed (I had a regular Native Warrior in the city that red-lined). I also lost a worker. I'm definitely going to need to do a military build up in the region in order to form a proper defense.

An observation (that you've probably already noticed, but I'll mention them anyway):

When you build the Colossus, you get generic Settler spawn in that city. For some reason they offer the ability to be upgraded to a civ specific settler unit for a gold price, which I feel is entirely pointless since they form the exact same function. I feel like you wanted the Colossus to spawn clan units, but (accidentally?) made it spawn the generic settler instead... I might be totally off-base with this, but I thought I'd mention it anyway.

Now don't take this (and my comments on your mod's main thread) as me hating your mod! Far from it! My early impressions are very positive! Just trying (and probably failing) to be helpful! I'm actually considering making it my first Let's Play on my YouTube channel... at some point.

As an aside, I actually got into Civ 3 back in 2006-07 thanks to my parents buying it for me for Christmas (I didn't ask for it they just got the Complete Edition for me randomly). I used to play it a ton (along with Age of Empires 3, oddly enough) on my old Dell Windows XP desktop (I miss that thing). I have so many stories about Civ 3 games I've played. I won't go into it much (it's late where I'm; 4AM), but I'll say this: Some hate the Indians, others hate the Aztec... Me? F**K THE INCA! My irrational hatred of the Inca runs deep, man...
 
You'll be building aqueducts to get to size 7 and above.
Not in CCM.

In CCM, Size-1 settlements (="Towns" in Firaxis Civ3) will grow to Pop10 before hitting the "freshwater cap", and Size-2 settlements (="Cities") can (theoretically!) get to Pop99; there are no Size-3 settlements (="Metropolises", requiring Hospitals), because @Civinator hates pollution ;)

So that also means that — unlike in Firaxis-Civ3 — the CCM-player should aim to use their limited numbers of autoproduced Settlers to found towns optimally with minimal to no BFC-overlap (i.e. at Cxx(x)xC, like the AI does), or their towns are quickly going to stunt each others' growth.

Which is one strike against that relatively small island (in CCM-terms): it doesn't have room for many optimally placed towns — so @B-29_Bomber should be prioritising the tech-path(s) and/or Wonders that will allow sending Settlers overseas relatively safely, ASAP.
 
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@Civinator hates pollution ;)
:lol: Yes, but I am not the only one. Soren Johnson in his Civ 4 manual described pollution as an "unfun" game element (pg. 160 of the German manual) and I completely agree to that opinion. Therefore in CCM the "unfun" and not necessary micromanagement of dealing with pollution is thrown out of the game as far as possible and be replaced by buildings providing additional unhappiness instead of pollution.
 
Here's some screenshots for context of the previous post (and over all territory overview):

Civ 3 CCM 2.50 - Sack of Detroit.png

This Detroit looks almost as bad as its real world counterpart, amirite? High five!

Civ 3 CCM 2.50 - Overall Overview of the American Empire.png
 
I already knew about Galleys sinking in sea and ocean tiles, but everything else was definitely new info!
I only tried to answer your question about the tactic of "suicide galleys"
And yeah, I just ran into enslavers. I've been building cities on an big island with several civs on it and just recently Detroit was destroyed by an Indian Enslaver and Houston almost got destroyed (I had a regular Native Warrior in the city that red-lined). I also lost a worker. I'm definitely going to need to do a military build up in the region in order to form a proper defense.
To have a worker mobile on roads can also be a good help in detecting enslavers and other invisible HN-units. Workers have a special sensibility about their worst enemies and therefore are able to detect enslavers (and later holy men and lawyers).
An observation (that you've probably already noticed, but I'll mention them anyway):
When you build the Colossus, you get generic Settler spawn in that city. For some reason they offer the ability to be upgraded to a civ specific settler unit for a gold price, which I feel is entirely pointless since they form the exact same function. I feel like you wanted the Colossus to spawn clan units, but (accidentally?) made it spawn the generic settler instead.
It is intended, that the GWs are producing settler- and not clan units. The reason behind that setting is the strict limitation of "barracks buildings". Barracks in my eyes are by far the most powerful buildings in Civ 3. Therefore in CCM 2.50 the "barracks-flag" in era 1 exists only for the palace and the GWs Siege Workshop and Desert Fortress (here no longer in CCM 2.6). In later eras there are a few additional SWs with the "barracks-flag". Normal buildings with the "barracks-flag" are government specific: In era 1 it is the castle, coming lately and only for civs in government "Monarchy". Later in the game there is an option for civs with government "Fascism" to build barracks and those people like their barracks so much, that they provide an additional point of happiness to their cities and there are the "Communists" who can build barracks as they are normally used in Civ 3.

As the clan solution must be combined with barracks in that city it collides with the strict limitation of barracks in CCM. Therefore I took the normal settler for those autoproduced settler units. You are correct, that an upgrade of this unit is completely useless, but otherwise another settler unit had to be introduced to CCM. May be I should do this for the next version of CCM. :think:
Now don't take this (and my comments on your mod's main thread) as me hating your mod! Far from it! My early impressions are very positive!
B-29_Bomber, thank you very much for your kind words about CCM. :) I never had a negative impression about your posts, as you can see at the size of my answers.
I'll say this: Some hate the Indians, others hate the Aztec... Me? F**K THE INCA! My irrational hatred of the Inca runs deep, man...
So this will be bad news, that in the next version of CCM the Incas, Aztecs and Vikings will be boosted - or it will be good news, considering that in the next version you can fight against the Incas much longer. :D
 
I only tried to answer your question about the tactic of "suicide galleys"
And you answered it perfectly!

Also, what's the ETA on CCM 2.60? Hopefully not for a while, I don't wanna have to reinstall CCM so soon after getting it to work. I want some time to get familiar with it.
 
Here's some screenshots for context of the previous post (and over all territory overview):
Thank you very much for the screenshots. :) It is interesting that the Archipelago map causes such a significant delay in the research of the techs, even when taking into consideration that this is your first game with that mod and many things are unknown.

In another post I tried to explain you how you can extract the seed of random maps. May be you can give us the seed of this map, so we can make some own tests about the pace of research on such a map.
 
Also, what's the ETA on CCM 2.60? Hopefully not for a while, I don't wanna have to reinstall CCM so soon after getting it to work. I want some time to get familiar with it.
I am not a factory, so I cannot give any ETA. I am now "in the middle of the work" on the next version.

The next version will be installed in the same way as it is the current version. That version will run with the Flintlock mod instead of the Antal1987 exe, fixing some bugs of C3C (including the submarine bug) and giving new options to C3C, among them a fix for the AI routine for offensive land artillery. The next version will also hold the files for running the next version of the mod RARR, the scenarios SOE and WW2 Global Gold and may be AOI and another project I did not post a lot about in the past.
 
What's that?
RARR = "Rise & Rule Revisited". It's an updated (by Civinator?) version of the "Rise & Rule" mod, which (IIRC) was itself the Conquests-compatible version of the "Double Your Pleasure" mod originally created for the Vanilla/PtW versions.
 
RARR = "Rise & Rule Revisited". It's an updated (by Civinator?) version of the "Rise & Rule" mod, which (IIRC) was itself the Conquests-compatible version of the "Double Your Pleasure" mod originally created for the Vanilla/PtW versions.
:yup: You can find RARR here. By using the CCM 2.50 expansion it was possible to shrink down the download of this big mod to only 13 MB.
 
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