Is this emperor start impossible?

[Jamppa]

Check out this starting save... Given start is one of the hardest i've ever played. It would be nice to have some kind of in-sight to this specific game from all you civ-pros out there.

Please use the spoiler -tool if you're planning to give feedback, dont spoil the overwhelming starting surprise. I managed to stay alive until about 0 ad, when I realized I had lost the game by turn 10.


Game settings:

Continents
Standard map size
Normal game speed
Emperor difficult level

 

[coffeeholic]

It would be cool to see a screenshot of this start later. I only check this board from a computer that does not have civ installed

AJK

 

[LlamaCat]

I'm not an expert player, but I'm having a real hard time understanding why this is such a bad start. You've got wheat and pigs right there, plus crabs, and a goodie hut, and you're on the coast as Mansa who is financial so there will be more money rolling in. There's even a hill for some early production. So what's not to like? I see bad starts all the time with ice and tundra, you don't have any of that... I'm missing something here

 

[Jamppa]

Llamacat; this is a start of crucial decicions - only few players(such as lilnev can win this start by playing it only once. I'm confident with this claim. Have a go, and you'll see what's up.

Edit: The beginning defines your late game. I personally consider a 'start' to include few dozen turns, where a player makes his decicions on a specific victory condition. Are my terms now in place, l-Cat?

 

[Ammar]

Don't get this. It's a decent start.

Spoiler :

Okay, you have the usual handicap of starting by yourself on an isolated island. You should be able to contact the civilization to the south moderately early. Contact with the rest will not come early, though.

Can probably be won by aiming for a strong economy though. You also have no real military threat, only barbs.

 

[LlamaCat]

Llamacat; this is a start of crucial decicions - only few (if anyone) can win this start by playing it only once. I'm confident with this claim. Have a go, and you'll see what's up.

I don't question that, but your game is set to Emperor level. That's the only reason I understand why it could be hard. But what specificially makes this particular start so difficult? The resources and the visible land are evaluated in hundreds of games and based on what you are showing here, you don't seem to have any basis for calling this "start" difficult. I don't have Warlords, but if I played this game I don't doubt you that it might turn out later to be a difficult game. But calling the start itself difficult does not really make sense or you are not using your terms correctly.

 

[lilnev]

OK. To 1000 AD I'm doing fine:

Spoiler :

Warrior NW, settler SE and settle. I want the plains hill in my fat cross. Research BW-(pop Ag)-AH-Fishing, build worker-warrior-settler-workboat. Mine the hill and build roads until AH is done, pasteurize the Pigs, then chop the boat. Second city founded on the desert hill to the south, claiming 4 flood plains + Wheat (I hadn't spied the out-of-reach Horses at the time). Build warriors for fogbusting. I don't get it, what's supposed to be hard about this start?

Research Pottery-Writing, build a second worker. Still no contact, and my warriors pushing outwards are sensing coastline on many fronts. I'm guessing that it's an isolated start, and that's what spooked the OP. On Emperor that's nothing of which to be afraid, at least with good land (though I do wish I'd placed my second city differently -- 1 NE would claim Horses and several cottages that will now be difficult or impossible to work). Space race should be straightforward. The main strategic question is whether I want Alphabet-Poly-Lit for the Great Library, and try to lightbulb my way to Liberalism, or straight to Monarchy to raise the happiness caps.

1840 BC. Writing is in, start Meditation. Screw the GL, I want a lot of cottages. Land is power, but only if you're actually working it, and that means happiness, and that means HR. Start a settler in Timbuktu, but working mostly cottages. There's no hurry to grab city sites. Warriors spar with barbarians when they appear, though I've got over 80% of the fog busted.

975 BC, found my third city (tundra WSW of Wheat, it can work several cottages + grass hills). After a little rearrangement, six fogbusters have reduced the fog to exactly four isolated tiles. I can live with that.

875 BC. Monarchy in. Start ramping up the cities. Fred is within galley range to the SW. That actually complicates things, as I need to block him off from my land, and keep him on good terms.

300 BC. CoL, and I found Confucianism as a bonus. Bonus awarded.

200 AD. Currency in. Research slider has been running low (30-50%), but I don't care. I'm developing cottages, for the win! Room for one more city in the west.

350 AD. Alphabet. Fred won't trade (I must be the only one he knows), but I sell him Monarchy for 150 and a small diplo bonus. I research some cheap techs, including Masonry-Poly-Lit, but the GL is finished just before I can start it. Then in 500 AD, Fred founds Taoism. Damn, I was hoping Confucianism would spread to him. I gift him CoL and sell Lit for cheap to get the full +4 diplo, but I still wonder if I'll have to abandon my religion. Unless I can convert him to mine....

680 AD. CS. Revolt to Bureaucracy. Research Paper. The plan is to tech towards Democracy. When the overseas folks show up in their caravels, I'll trade to backfill the lower half of the tree. Built so far: 7 settlers, 8 workers, 2 workboats, 3 Confucian missionaries, 26 warriors. 7 granaries, 2 monuments, 5 libraries. Focus.

840 AD. My first GS (I've been running 1-2 scientists in the capital). Philosophy. I delayed Paper for IW (in case I have to defend myself; also, after Paper the GS would have hit Education, and I'm not sure I want to go the Liberalism route). I discover that I've built 2 cities atop Iron. Note that I've avoided Hunting, so I can still build warriors as cheap garrison troops. Paper in, start Nationalism. And then Fred rises to pleased and becomes willing to convert for CS (I chopped a galley and shipped a missionary to Berlin). That's a big relief. Postpone Nationalism for Calendar.

1000 AD. Calendar in. Ragnar arrives at my west coast. He immediately demands a map, which raises him to pleased. Then he'll trade Feudalism + Metal Casting + a bit of gold for my Philosophy + Paper. Here's the map:

I'm still a bit behind in tech (Machinery, Compass, Construction, Optics. Engineering or Guilds wouldn't surprise me). Nationalism and/or more trading partners should fix that. I'm not going for Liberalism this game -- I don't have the GSs to power through Education. But once I can trade for Machinery, I'll work on PP, then Constitution and Democracy. Emancipation should let me run away with the endgame.

Enough for now....

peace,
lilnev

 

[lilnev]

A few saves, if'n you want to scope the details yourself.

 

[SwordofStriker]

I'm also at a loss as to what makes this start bad? I'll take this start any day. I'd say if this start is one of the hardest you've played, you've been getting some unusually good starts OR you are more than a little familiar with the world builder.

 

[Antilogic]

Well, the reason why I don't see a problem here is probably because I'm still a Prince/Monarch player.

 

[Galileo44]

Spoiler :

I think that this stems possibly from running an economy based on teching using lightbulbs and backfilling (typical SE). This game, with no early trading parters you may fall behind using SE, but I think that in this case filling the island with cottages is the way to go as Lilnev did. I am supremely confident that he will win this game.

 

[lilnev]

1000 AD to victory:

Spoiler :

A few turns later, Fred has met Ragnar, so he's willing to trade Machinery+Construction to me for Feudalism+Paper. I consider switching to Printing Press, but decide to finish Nationalism. With Marble, I want to try for the Taj. Cathy shows up, and I trade Philo to her for Compass+50+Fair Trade diplo bonus.

1200 AD. PP is done. My research jumps from 256 beakers and -8 gold to 285 beakers and +1 gold (slider at 70%). About a 15% jump. Not a bad tech. Ragnar got Liberalism a few turns ago, choosing Astro. I sink two turns into Ed, at which point Cathy will trade it to me for PP. The next turn I trade Ed to Brennus for Engineering+Optics, and to Fred for Guilds. Note that, with Engineering+Iron, I can no longer build warriors (they're pikemen instead); but I've still avoided HBR, so chariots are still available as relatively cheap garrison troops. I still have the Nationalism monopoly, that I know of.

1240 AD. Taj. Ragnar is in WFYABTA. Screw him. Trade Nationalism to Cathy for Liberalism+110. Constitution finishes. Brennus demands Liberalism, which I grant. Augustus arrives. I gift PP to him, bringing him up to cautious, then get Gunpowder in trade for Education.

Constitution is a monopoly. In addition, I have Nationalism over Ragnar and Augustus, and multiple techs over Fred and Brennus. I think that means I'm ahead in the tech race, though it's not yet a "clear lead".

Wang shows up in 1320, just as the Golden Age is ending. I gift PP to him, leaving me only Constitution, but he doesn't have anything new. I'd like Banking, but I'm not convinced I should trade for it, at the cost of the WFY demerit. It's only a 2-3 turn tech. I think I can afford to wait.

Units so far: 7 settlers, 8 workers, 2 workboats, 40 warriors, 1 chariot.
Buildings so far: 8 granaries, 8 libraries, 7 courthouses, 5 mints, 3 lighthouses, 3 harbors, 3 aqueducts, 3 barracks, 2 monuments, 1 university. With a lot more universities under contruction. My cities are all in the 8-14 size range, necessitating the health buildings.

1360 AD. Democracy. Switch to Emancipation and Free Religion. Research Banking-Econ, I think. Astro is the other possibility. Oversees trade routes and resource sales can be very profitable. Cities are pretty much maxed out by food at this point.

1400 AD. Econ. Switch to Free Market + Free Speech. I'd like switch to US at some point, but only if I can scrape together enough other sources of happiness. Corporation next, then trade Econ+Nationalism to Fred for Astronomy. Sell spare Silk and Wheat for cash. Sell my world map, and I can run at 100% for several turns. My GNP is the highest, and rising. Chemistry in three turns, for example, then Steam Power in five.

1540 AD. Cathy, pleased, declares. Yeah, she's like that. 4 knights and 2 trebs. I upgrade some warriors to pikes and fight her off. She's had Chemistry for a while, so I expect that the next wave will be grens. But I'm only two turns from Assembly Line.

There is no second wave, and she agrees to peace for Steam Power. Right back to pleased, she's even willing to sign a defensive pact. Crazy woman. I tech through Steel to Railroad, then trade for Scientific Method, Physics, Biology, and research Artillery, Rocketry by 1665 AD. Start the Apollo Program in my best production city, which isn't very good. I haven't even started Ironworks -- need one more mint first. Space races are usually research-limited rather than production-limited, but this may be the rare exception. Timbuktu is running as many engineers as possible, in the hopes of GEs for the Space Elevator.

Detour to Medicine. It's a dead-end tech, but with factories and coal plants coming online, I'm facing unhealthiness. I'm able to trade it to Cathy for Combustion+610. I'm 2+ techs ahead of everyone. Radio, then Computers in 1770 AD. I've been selling old techs for whatever I can get to keep research high. Biology for 250, for example. Do I really care if Brennus has Biology? Maybe he'll even research Ecology for me. I try to avoid trading like this to the nearest competitors, however (Cathy at the moment).

1800 AD. Industrialism, for Aluminum. I join Ragnar and Cathy in a false war against Wang. But then he begs the protection of Augustus (who already has Brennus as a vassal) and suddenly six new wars are declared. Well, hopefully Augustus/Brennus/Wang will have their hands full at home, but I build some tanks and artillery just in case. Indeed there's no invasion, but he does send destroyers to trash my fishing fleet. I'm forced into Environmentalism for the health benefit. Wow, it's been a while since I ran Environmentalism. Eventually I buy peace. Meanwhile I've teched Sattelites and Fission. Trade Fission+Computers to Cathy for Plastics+war vs. Ragnar. Keep 'em busy. Fusion, then Robotics. I rush the Space Elevator with two GEs that I've saved, finishing it in 1876. No one is seriously competing with me for space parts. Refridgeration, Genetics, and Ecology last, finishing in 1888.

Launch in 1914 AD. Fred was the next closest, lacking Sattelites, Fiber Optics, and Fusion, plus the construction time for parts. Very comfortable.

Summary: Isolated starts on Emperor are nothing to be afraid of, as long as you have reasonable land and know what you're doing. HR and cheap garrison troops for happiness, cottages and more cottages, get to Democracy and Liberalism for the good civics, diplomacy and trading, win.

Now for a real ugly start, scope my latest game with Ghengis (Immortal, large shuffle):

Spoiler :

No, there's no contact before Optics. What you see is what you get.

It's taken me five tries (yes, I am a stubborn dog) to get to a tolerable midgame position, and I'm far from sure I can win this....

peace,
lilnev

 

[mtncake1]

Agreed with the other players. This start isn't horrible seeing how you are playing single player. When you play vs the AI you can pretty much have any start and be able to overcome most obstacles. If you were playing multiplayer then you would be at a bigger disadvantage, especially if other players had better production than you.