Isabella

[UnforcedError]

Out of curiousity when did you even start playing this game, seeing that you only just signed up this month?

I didn't buy Civ Vanilla as soon as it came out as you did (the reason being Civ 3 which sadly never lived up to my MoO-based expectations). As far as I remember I bought the Vanilla version some 5 years ago finally deciding to give it a go. However, I've been playing strategy games for over 30 years now and being a real geek and fond of numbers I actually started experimenting with various openings for various starts right from the beginning. So I played the game relying on my empiric observations most of the time, which turned out to be wanting as soon as I tried out Emperor. Then I found this forum and read the whole of the War Academy, most of the strategy articles, read game write-ups, watched as many videos as I could, and experimented with the strategies I found here. All these tips and tactics made Emperor a cakewalk and Immortal quite comfortable. I'm just the type of person who doesn't sign up to a forum as long as she thinks she has nothing meaningful to ask / say.

Spain just happens to be a very good Civ for teching an early religion because they can go workboat first. Similarly to Justinian with a Settler first.

If this game didn't have the concept of tile improvements or even if the difference between improved and unimproved resource tiles was smaller, a city's general progress (growth / resource and commerce potential) would be closer to linear. However, in civ 4 it's rather quadratic or even cubic in the early game (as long as the city can grow onto improved tiles). So 1 city working improved tiles makes much better progress than 2 cities working unimproved tiles, and will therefore be capable of producing more within the same time frame (this is why worker first is generally a good idea).

Fishing starts, as I mentioned earlier, are generally slower than Grain / Deer / Sheep / Pig starts. The math behind it is pretty simple, while normally a city would build units / workers / settlers in the very early game while workers could improve tiles parallel to it, in case of a seafood start your city has to build tile improvements plus anything else it would normally build. With Fishing / Mining you can minimize the difference by going BW first, but this would still eat up some of your finite (forest) or limited (pop) resources, which you could also find other uses for. And Izzy doesn't even start with Mining. Going for Poly certainly doesn't help, because it does you no good at that stage of the game. If you can grind out a game on Immortal with this tactic, good for you.

Same goes for founding all religions by handpicking opponents and a cooked start: if this was for role-playing purposes and not actually stated to be a winning strategy in the game, fine. I just think the OP actually wanted to read about more general tactics than that.

 

[Saxif]

I have been away from this thread for awhile, some interesting posts and 'discussions' ... I founded a religion in this game because it is something I never do and I was jealous of Boudicia getting a +44 gold shrine in one of my previous games so thought I would give it a try!

I don't doubt that religion is sub optimal but given I never do it I thought I would try it, doing ok but I can see worker techs as the way forwards. I would have thought that a shrine would pay for itself in the long run though!

 

[UnforcedError]

Welcome back I was afraid we sort of managed to chase you away

... I founded a religion in this game because it is something I never do and I was jealous of Boudicia getting a +44 gold shrine in one of my previous games...

I think you're looking at this the wrong way. She actually built it for you Just take it. Taking shrined cities of dominant religions is certainly profitable.

I don't doubt that religion is sub optimal but given I never do it I thought I would try it, doing ok but I can see worker techs as the way forwards. I would have thought that a shrine would pay for itself in the long run though!

There's nothing wrong with having a shrined city. It gives you a steady income (especially with market / grocer / bank and Wall Street if you're inclined to build it) plus you can whip the city to the ground or use it for drafting, since the gold bonus is independent from its pop. The problem really lies in beelining one of the three early faiths instead of improving your empire. Plus you'd have to build missionaries to make it really effective (auto-spread is generally pretty lame, even if you establish foreign trade routes early), otherwise the AIs would just spread their own religions to the pagan civs. I usually end up founding Confucianism and would then send my free missionary to a pagan neighbor if I have one, who would then adopt the religion, but often end up adopting another a few turns later, simply because the religious AIs always seem to have the free hammers to spam missionaries. Sometimes I luck out on that and the target AI would start spreading Confu in its own cities. These are the rare times when I'd actually consider shirining my own holy city (or if I managed to take a shrineless holy city of an established religion). Just don't overbuild on shrines. A single good shrine's enough.

 

[Saxif]

Ya, taking a shrined city is certainly better than building your own, I can see that!

I still haven't managed to play another session of my current game as I had some holiday booked tonight however I foresee myself bee lining Comquistadors and 'doing' all my neighbours in, starting with Monty! Having to defend against him and keep my army up seriously slowed down my tech rate, how can you keep a high tech rate whilst spamming units at monarch?

I ask specifically at Monarch because I am still out teching the AI but am slow compared to what I can do!

I got a some GS out and this time put down 2 academy and bulbed philo, also built a shrine with my GP, have cities that are either farms, cottages or hammer rich, building a bit of wealth to keep my slider higher, really wanted Pyrmaids but failed and so didn't bother too much with specialists except to produces GS's.

Ok, let me summarise . How do I rip through science? Early war and 2 or more capitals, lots of capitals, crash and recover economy or something else? My earliest lib is about 880ad, and I have never had the space ship land pre 1900!

 

[UnforcedError]

I still haven't managed to play another session of my current game as I had some holiday booked tonight however I foresee myself bee lining Comquistadors and 'doing' all my neighbours in, starting with Monty! Having to defend against him and keep my army up seriously slowed down my tech rate, how can you keep a high tech rate whilst spamming units at monarch?

I ask specifically at Monarch because I am still out teching the AI but am slow compared to what I can do!

The best way to deal with Monty and any other warmongering nutcake is to keep them occupied constantly. Warmongers are programmed to war so the best idea is to let them war while you tech peacefully along. As soon as you get Alpha, try bribing him in on somebody (preferably send him against other warmongers or good defenders like Sitting Bull, because that will keep him in a stalemate instead of (probably) providing him with a later vassal, but basically anybody's fine he's willing to go to war with). It will be costly but it's generally worth it. He's not the greatest techer anyway. You will outtech him anytime.
As soon as he makes peace try bribing him in on someone else. If he's already in war-mode when you encounter him, try gifting him techs, trade him resources (for gpt if need be) and adopt his religion so that he goes to pleased. (This will not guarantee that he won't DoW you but lower the possibility of it. Sooner or later he will declare on somebody. That's a foregone conclusion.) If he still declares on you you should bribe in somebody on him immediately (this will be cheap, as you're already at war with him), and if you're not interested in taking his cities or vassaling him, make peace as soon as you can.

I got a some GS out and this time put down 2 academy and bulbed philo, also built a shrine with my GP, have cities that are either farms, cottages or hammer rich, building a bit of wealth to keep my slider higher, really wanted Pyrmaids but failed and so didn't bother too much with specialists except to produces GS's.

Ok, let me summarise . How do I rip through science? Early war and 2 or more capitals, lots of capitals, crash and recover economy or something else? My earliest lib is about 880ad, and I have never had the space ship land pre 1900!

On Monarch lib around 800 AD is totally fine (what do you tend to lib?) and so is a 1900 AD spaceship, IMO. As for your current game, could you provide a game save or at least some screenies / summaries? It's hard to give specific advice otherwise.

 

[Saxif]

Sure, I can attach a sve directly to a post?

 

[Saxif]

I won't lib at 800ad this game, I think I am on for 1300 ... To much war and too much spamming units kept me from building decent stuff (as I think of things). No libbing before 900ad was a one off event with Elizabeth of England, I often take Nationalism or Printing Press with lib depending on my goals but sometimes when confident I will tech something else and get an expensive tech for free ...

 

[Saxif]

Uploaded my save!

 

[UnforcedError]

Alright, so first of all some remarks on the game so far, if you don't mind:

1. I wouldn't have founded neither Hinduism nor Judaism, but you know that anyway.

2. Declaring on Hannibal with Monty in your back wasn't such a good idea in the early game, especially since you made him adopt Hinduism. That would have got him to pleased and he's not such a bad ally (he won't declare at pleased). Instead you razed some of his cities which is not advisable in the early game either, as the diplo penalties are immense.
(You should probably only raze cities if you know that you will eliminate or vassal the AI in one go or if you already have such a huge military advantage that you don't have to care about your diplo relations with the AI anymore.)

3. All the diplo hits don't help your tech situation, as you only have open borders with Cyrus atm.

4. You really have tons of unchopped forest. You should at least chop the riverside grassland tiles and farm or cottage them. (Madrid looks pretty good for cottaging. And Bur won't do you too much good if the cap isn't generating enough commerce. In fact Barcelona is your best research city right now.) You could be doing much better food-wise if you had more farms instead of working unimproved forests. (Civil Service is the right tech to go for.)

So, what to do with this game?

You got yourself into a tricky diplo situation. You're the worst enemy of both Monty and Hannibal. Hannibal is a lost cause. Cyrus does not bribe at pleased. If you switch to Buddhism right away Hannibal might actually auto-declare. Your only chance is getting Monty to cautious and try to bribe him in on Hannibal before you go Buddhism.

So I'd say, our immediate goal is to (eliminate or) vassal both Hannibal and Monty. You could try and do this:

1. Trade for Feudalism with Cyrus.

2. Whip a Buddhist missonary in Vandal as soon as it's out of revolt. (And if you switch to Slavery anyway, whip away unimproved tiles in your other cities.) Start spreading Buddhism around like no tomorrow. It's the AP religion. Even if you don't plan to adopt it it's always a good idea to spread it, so that you have a chance against AP decisions. Also, you don't have too much production and since you're SPI you should at least build (whip) the temples everywhere. The hammers will come handy.

3. As soon as Buddhism has spread somewhere safely switch into no-state religion and gift Vandal back to Monty (it would be tricky to hold anyway). This will (hopefully) get him to cautious. If you don't get a +4 for fair trade, try giving him a tech too. As soon as he's cautious, open borders with him and trade some resources with him if possible. Try to bribe him in on Hannibal.

4. If you succeed you'll have some breathing space. Go against Hannibal yourself as soon as you're ready. (Chop an army.) Vassal him. (If you have to beat him down to one city, either eliminate him completely or gift him some of his cities back after he caps. You will need him to tech.) As soon as he's safely out of the way one way or the other adopt Buddhism to please Cyrus. Now you can go against Monty.

5. Note: Liberalism might be at risk in this game. The unknown group is not warring and they have the Pyramids, the GLH and the Colossus. (Try bulbing Paper and / or Edu if you get a GS. Do not build any more Academies.)

6. I'd adopt Free Religion before meeting the AIs overseas.

7. As soon as you control your own continent you should have no trouble being friendly with Cyrus. Or you can take him out if you want to go for dom or conquest. But Space is definitely possible too after you've dealt with Hannibal and Monty, if that's your favourite victory condition.

 

[Saxif]

The way it actually went was something like this ... I made peace with Hannibal and Monty, I ignored Monty mostly and I think Cyrus and Monty had a small set to, then I built up my military trying to gtet powerful enough to take Hannibal. Just before I was ready he attacked me, so I swapped to Slavery and Nationalism and took him on.

He took a minor city of mine and I took a major city of his but he had alot of catapults and he savaged my stack, it took ages and ages to rebuild it. I did rebuild it though and I got him to capitulate. As soon as I had conquistadors I went south and brutalized Monty, during this war though the other continent appeared and I soon relaized I was tech inferior. Just before vassalising Monty the other AI's DOW on him, so I captured a bunch of cities and then razed 2 to create a culture break.

I then play a bit more but basically gave up, I was about 5 techs behind and didn't think I would get internet. Gilgamesh had a huge army, mine was about 1/3 as large, alhough he wasn't about to DOW me, a huge army, significantly better tech, more spyness e.t.c. I gave up, gonna replay this map from my 4000bc save and go worker techs as usual and try and get it right!

I always try and leave some forests for health and lumbermills later on (I think I might be an environmentalist at heart!). I think I can do better and will try this time around

 

[Saxif]

Editted cos I was wrong!

 

[UnforcedError]

I always try and leave some forests for health and lumbermills later on (I think I might be an environmentalist at heart!). I think I can do better and will try this time around

Leaving some forest for health is good if you have lots of floodplains in a city. Leaving forests for lumbermills is a bit of a trap, though. Lumbermills come with Replaceable Parts, a late mid game tech. If you chop the forest intead and build farms you will have population for whipping or specialists long before lumbermills come into play. Or you can just cottage those areas. As for their late game health bonus: you can get tons of health from the late game health buildings if you really need it. Chopping forest early on can give a real boost to your production. Much better than the extra hammer from the lumbermill when you finally have it. You should at least chop the tiles you can utilize (almost) immediately, which generally means all grassland tiles. Plains are not that great for improvements in the early game, except possibly for riverside tiles.

 

[Saxif]

Well restarted the game off my 4000bc save, built fewer wonders and expanded more, focused my cities more, spammed more cottages and didn't go religion first. I am in a stronger position, got liberalism about 1220 ad, not great but maybe 100 years earlier.

In my current game Monty declared on Cyrus, I am about to declare on Monty as he needs a whooping, his shrined city is providing him with massive tech bonus, so much so that he has tech parity with me and more than Hannibal or Cyrus! Shame his holy city is so very far away!

 

[UnforcedError]

Well restarted the game off my 4000bc save, built fewer wonders and expanded more, focused my cities more, spammed more cottages and didn't go religion first. I am in a stronger position, got liberalism about 1220 ad, not great but maybe 100 years earlier.

In my current game Monty declared on Cyrus, I am about to declare on Monty as he needs a whooping, his shrined city is providing him with massive tech bonus, so much so that he has tech parity with me and more than Hannibal or Cyrus! Shame his holy city is so very far away!

Great Don't forget to secure a peace treaty with Hannibal before going against Monty, if Monty is in position to bribe him. Will you upload the game save?

 

[Saxif]

I uploaded a 4000bc save, a 40AD and my current save for you to get a flavour of what is going on!

 

[Ramesses-Rules]

In my games, Izzy is usually a problem only if she has good starting geography. Sometimes she goes light on military early in the game to REX. In those cases, Chariot Rush kills her. I have done this several times. The guy who has been giving me the most problems this week is Wang Kon. Today's game was a disaster: Caesar and Shaka both bordering me and jamming my expansion. Their UU's made it nearly impossible to beat them in early wars (I tried both), and in each game the other civ attacked me because these dudes are "pleased" with each other as soon as they meet. Arg!

 

[Saxif]

Wan kong I haven't had a problem with in the past, unless I wanna attack him and have to wade through his defensive units! I find Gilgamesh more of a pain usually tbh ... As well as the early war orientated Civs of course.

I haven't seen Mansu Mansa for ages in my games, in fact over a year! Maybe I'll select some leaders I haven't seen for my next game

In this game I made another gran for the AP city but came up short by 1 city, still took 2 of haniibals and 2 of Montys in my attempt and now have a majority and am sitting in the controlling seat, so thats good enough

 

[UnforcedError]

Been out of town for a few days but I will look at the files this evening when I'm back home again, sorry.

 

[Saxif]

Haven't finished the game yet, I think it will be tough for me to win by anything other than space race now, thought that seems increasingly likely. I have weakened Monty to the point where if I DOW on him again with a military tech advantage he will fall over, Hannibal has been weakened also. I am techs ahead of Cyrus and if anyone on the other continent attacks me, I should be fine as the AI isn't very good at cross continentalinvasions.

 

[Ataxerxes]

Wan kong I haven't had a problem with in the past, unless I wanna attack him and have to wade through his defensive units! I find Gilgamesh more of a pain usually tbh ... As well as the early war orientated Civs of course.

I haven't seen Mansu Mansa for ages in my games, in fact over a year! Maybe I'll select some leaders I haven't seen for my next game.

Your experience matches others. Wang Kon is famous for underexpanding so he's usually easy pickings later on, so I usually don't attack him early. Gilgamesh is dangerous, especially in the early game. For the human, Gilgamesh is all about early game.