The math is pretty brutal. For recovering the culture cost for the next policy, the number of barbs you would have to kill is crazy.
Isolated start
- Thread starter Entilzha
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The math is pretty brutal. For recovering the culture cost for the next policy, the number of barbs you would have to kill is crazy.
HughFran
Prince
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I always play with 'Raging Barbarians' activated so on an isolated area, I've plenty to kill! In my opinion, it only takes 25 Culture to open up your first Policy, so it's not that long to wait. Then, when you open Honor, you usually have plenty of Barbs to kill to get the Tradition/Liberty opener very quickly afterwards. I really don't see any negatives in this!! I don't think the maths are as bad as you say:
25 until first policy opener (quicker if you pop ruins with culture)
Open up Honor then kill three Barb units to get very close to 30 for next social policy.
Open Tradition for +4 Culture, kill a few more Barbs and you are already on your way to next Policy.
For me, it's a no brainer - but then, not everybody likes to play with raging barbs.
Ok, but what happens on your 3rd and 4th picks from tradition (the 4th is very important, you really need to rush Landed Elite)? The barb culture will not compensate for those and you will actually get them later. Because your 3rd and 4th tradition picks are now actually your 4th and 5th SPs picked they will cost a lot more, and you are still getting an average of 10-12 culture for barb killed. Even with raging barbs it is barely cutting it, but as the game progresses the losses are bigger and bigger, and later you are "stuck" with a policy that doesn't do anything since barbs will play almost no role in the game. The number of SPs you can unlock is limited, and each time you pick a SP, you give up on something else, so there is an opportunity cost associated with every pick.
HughFran
Prince
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Yep, it can be done! I'm not sure why people are saying you will be left behind. Sure, you won't get Science boosts from external trade routes but if your cities are able to grow unmolested then you can generate your own science! I also won a game recently where I started off isolated for AGES! On top of that, my victory was cultural - as soon as people discovered me they started buying my blue jeans and playing my music....
There are two major drawbacks from an isolated start:
Not enough city states: this means no early gold and no early quests, so no early friendship/allies, and all the minuses that come with it, like lack of food, culture and happiness (sometimes faith). By the time you meet the rest of the city states they already have friends/allies and you need to surpass a lot of influence if you want them as allies.
Not AIs around: this means that you don't get the tech cost deduction for early techs (5% for each civ you know that already has this tech) and you can't make deals with them (on lower difficulties this is not such a big deal since the AI won't have the money to boy your stuff anyway). Also you can't bribe them to go to war, and if they are peaceful, at higher difficulties this can make them runaways. By the time you get Astronomy and meet them (or rather they get Astronomy and meet you) they can be very advanced, and it will be very hard to catch up.
Not enough city states: this means no early gold and no early quests, so no early friendship/allies, and all the minuses that come with it, like lack of food, culture and happiness (sometimes faith). By the time you meet the rest of the city states they already have friends/allies and you need to surpass a lot of influence if you want them as allies.
Not AIs around: this means that you don't get the tech cost deduction for early techs (5% for each civ you know that already has this tech) and you can't make deals with them (on lower difficulties this is not such a big deal since the AI won't have the money to boy your stuff anyway). Also you can't bribe them to go to war, and if they are peaceful, at higher difficulties this can make them runaways. By the time you get Astronomy and meet them (or rather they get Astronomy and meet you) they can be very advanced, and it will be very hard to catch up.
wideframehoss
Chieftain
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It all depends on difficulty level. As others have stated, an isolated start on deity is crippling because you can't trade with an AI to get your economy going, you can't send caravans for science, and you can't sign research agreements.
It sounds like most people in this thread aren't playing deity so an isolated start isn't necessarily going to be a problem.
It sounds like most people in this thread aren't playing deity so an isolated start isn't necessarily going to be a problem.
wideframehoss
Chieftain
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Right. I mean that sort of thing is common without an isolated start if you don't play a tight game.
Agreed,though I think a case can be made for the aztecs,the honor culture stacks with their UA,Jaguars are great early killing machines.done well it can help lead to an early snowball.
I don't agree with this, but it's something that seems to come up every few months and then dissipate without either side of the argument yielding.
The Aztecs receive no additional bonus from barb culture with the honor opener. Other civs receive no culture from a brute without honor opener, or 8 culture with the honor opener. 8-0=8, they receive 8 more culture with the honor opener than they otherwise would. The Aztecs receive 8 culture from a brute without the honor opener, or 16 culture with it. 16-8=8, they receive 8 more culture with the honor opener.
The civs that really benefit from the honor opener are the Germans and the Songhai. The Germans can build an early army from capturing encampments, and the Songhai can build an early economy from doing so.
Except that it also notifies of new encampments, giving them more units.
Isolation isn't that bad, cause you can get away with focusing all your hammers into infrastructure with minimal investment in a military to defend from barbs. It's easier to science up and become legitimately dangerous when you actually go and meet other civs, and you're also free to expand or fast NC at your own pace (by which I mean, you no longer have to worry about popping early settlers just to define borders).
HughFran
Prince
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I agree! I don't think you get left behind in isolation - you get to build science buildings in peace and concentrate of making your cities grow. Then, when they have grown enough and you do eventually meet an aggressive AI, you can build units quickly enough and advanced enough to counter them
Popedesu
Chieftain
Personally I love to stay under the radar as much as possible, when going for any victory really. It gives you time to build an army on domination, which you can then sail across the sea and start wiping them out. On top of that you have a remote location for the AI to sail to so you just need to make a fleet of ships to protect you from their embarked units.
On culture it lets you rush wonders with out having to worry about any possible invaders, same goes for science really.
On diplo victory it gives you 1-2 city states who are going to be your guaranteed ally for the entire game unless you have Greece on the map.
The only place where you might study is economically, but at least this lets you grow your cities quite nicely since you won't have to focus trade routes to other civs/cs you can put them onto your cities.
On culture it lets you rush wonders with out having to worry about any possible invaders, same goes for science really.
On diplo victory it gives you 1-2 city states who are going to be your guaranteed ally for the entire game unless you have Greece on the map.
The only place where you might study is economically, but at least this lets you grow your cities quite nicely since you won't have to focus trade routes to other civs/cs you can put them onto your cities.
KmDubya
King
If you are isolated from the AI but can access a few city states then it is not a bad situation. You can plan out your cities without worry about the AI stealing the good spots. As long as you can trade with the city states you can keep a positive cash flow. If you have multiple city states you can even conquer one without long term diplomatic implications, just don't have multiple DoWs against them.
Callonia
Deity
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Isolated start don't always mean death, but the last time I had a truly isolated start was in civ3. I was on rather huge continent in southern pole so I used it well plus several surrounding islands and developed in peace..
Until the AI came by and found me. I was in modern era and then noticed that all the ais that found me was in renaissance and medieval era. I decided to go for domination. And unleashed the modern armors against knights.
Until the AI came by and found me. I was in modern era and then noticed that all the ais that found me was in renaissance and medieval era. I decided to go for domination. And unleashed the modern armors against knights.
All of this depends on the difficulty you play as, on deity, isolated start basically meant no early wonders, and guaranteed late to Renaissance due to no rush buys, no trade routes from AI. On lower difficulty, you can use it as advantage to play builder game in peace.
stormtrooper412
Peacemongering Turtlesaur
the problem with that is you will hit the happiness cap very quickly
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