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It doesn't feel like I'm building a civilization

Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Falk, Sep 29, 2010.

  1. Danei

    Danei Warlord

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    As a proud owner of the full game, I have to agree with this. I encountered every issue I currently have with Civ V within the first 100 turns of my first game, and none of them went away when I hit turn 101.
     
  2. weeee333

    weeee333 Chieftain

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    That's why there's anarchy. And the more changes you make to the civics, the longer the anarchy lasts. I find it very easy to roleplay in my mind that that's what's happening to my civilization. About the timeframe of anarchy: sometimes a turn can be decades, sometimes a turn can be 6 months. So yea, it does kind of break immersion as the game progresses, but it's a fine balance between realism and gameplay (you wouldn't want to be punished by having anarchy last longer towards the endgame just for the sake of realism, right?). I loved the civics system because of this.


    I find social policies very unrealistic and it kills my roleplaying experience, despite it being an "RPG device". Why? Because in RPGs where you build up a character (a person) then assume its role, in civ, social policies are used to role play my civilization which is a collection of people. A SOCIETY. And Societies change much more than individual people do. My hero may not unlearn his swordfighting skills in an RPG, but governments and societies change all the time. Having my civ realize it is "honourable", then forcing it to stay like this for thousands of years is neither realistic nor is it fun.

    Japan is a civilization that used to treat honour as one of its most important societal values, but after the defeat in WW2 their constitution no longer allows them to militarily interfere in international conflicts that do not involve themselves. I can't do this in-game because once a society decides it's "honourable", you have to be an eternal war-monger to reap the benefits.

    What about the USSR, the Third Reich, China and its many civil wars and turmoils? What about Rome and France's revolutions? No society in history picks a policy and stays the same way for eternity.

    That's why I HATE social policies. I'm not playing a hero and building a character, I'm playing as a civilization, and not allowing my civilization to change according to world politics (in a game called Civilization, no less!) is just absurd.
     
  3. ethanyoung66

    ethanyoung66 Chieftain

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    In fact, i like Civ5 better on this. Land grabbing oriented gameplay style is not my taste. I prefer a more resource dependant oriented gameplay style. Bigger is not the only way out anymore.

    I think your point makes sense. send settler everywhere without limit doesn't feel logical, this should be fixed.


    I think this is for the balance. If you have multiple kind of resources in one place to begin with, why trade ? I prefer this style of gameplay in Civ5 more.


    I agree with this point. SP is just another tech tree waiting to be unlocked. There should be penalty when switching between policy and a policy's effect should be more dramatic and distinguishable.


    I prefer Civ5 way better. Building tons of things is like playing Simcity. Gameplay should not be all about buiding stuff.

    I couldn't agree with you more on this. I think city state is a flaw.

    I think the Civ5 game engine itself is good enough to become great. it's just the gameplay style preference is different from people to people. With the mod tool released, some of these points can easily be modded and the gameplay experience can be very different. Put it in another words, i can in fact change the gameplay to the style i prefer, so do everybody else. I think we have a great game fundation which we can build on and get some really good variety of mod game style out.
     
  4. kaltorak

    kaltorak Emperor

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    I agree with most points and disagree with a few.

    This one is the most important:

    That point is what bores me more in civ5.
     
  5. James009

    James009 Warlord

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    Frankly, I tend to somewhat agree with the OP. I don't think his statements are "stupid" or too wrong.
     
  6. jjkrause84

    jjkrause84 King

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    Yeah. I totally understand the decision to make enemy leaders pretend to be human players....I just don't agree with it (and think it takes one more immersive element out of the game).

    On a nit-picking sidenote:

    Armies would frequently forage AND have a supply train. Even small-ish raiding armies in the Middle Ages had supply trains (afterall, you can't effectively forage replacement weapons, ammunition, etc.). This often gave them great flexibility. If your supply train had both ovens/mills AND lots of biscuits then you could continue to use lots of locally sourced grain which was a pretty efficient way of going about it (1.039kg of grain could be baked into 1.385kg of bread, for example). If, however, a large enemy army was approachign you could abandon your ovens and mills and high-tail it without starving.

    What is often overlooked in the discussion of foraging is not only how difficult and risky it is (you are spreading an army out pretty thinly) but the fact that if the enemy has an army in the region it become all but impossible. Several invading English armies during the 100 Years War dealt suffered from this. If the French were in the area they couldn't forage and thus the English army that fought at Crécy were practically starving by the time the battle was fought.


    I could go on (I swoon over pre-industrial age logistics....don't ask me why) but I'm sure I've got quite far enough off topic. :D
     
  7. Von Salza

    Von Salza Chieftain

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    Three things are absolutely clear for me...

    1 - The game needs more work, shouldn't have been released like this.

    2 - The game is this form is not as thrilling/addictive as should be, thus many ppl say they are bored and this makes a comparison with IV, unfair.

    3 - There is not a new feature that has the WOW factor.
     
  8. Windsor

    Windsor Flawless

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    Why is comparison with Civ4 unfair?
     
  9. Von Salza

    Von Salza Chieftain

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    @Windsor

    Civ IV patched and with both expansion packs will be very hard to top, it will be a reference like UFO, Planescape Torment, Doom or Kings Quest.

    Civilization IV was/is a hell of a game, it's a masterpiece. The involvement of the community is terms of mods or simply an presence in the forums webwide was extreme.

    Civ V even if released complete/polished and with a couple of extraordinary features/improvements that honestly I haven't seen yet, would have a very hard time getting to Civ IV level.

    Civ V can only aspire to be the next best thing to CIV IV, and that would great indeed, but it was not a very good start....
     
  10. Jediron

    Jediron Prince

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    You are right, Sidon goes was back to 4000BC, perhaps more. Oh well, makes no difference how the game playes for me....
     
  11. Penwa

    Penwa Warlord

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    I would like it if you could create a colony like in civ IV; perhaps making them pupet states. Very annoying having such a large empire over the seas.
     
  12. BjoernLars

    BjoernLars Warlord

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    I agree with you on some points here, but they aren't anything that would want me to quit the game.


    I think AI personality would be nice. I think that they should try to win the game, but I think the AI should have pre-planned ways to win the game choosen at random at the beginning of the game. Perhaps Gandhi would go for the Diplomatic, Napoleon for the cultural and Monty for the domination win. If one player is trying to go for the domination win, I think that the other Civs would most likely band together to prevent that win to preserve their method to win.


    I think between the Medieval and Renessiance eras that most of the map should be filled up. I can't remember which poster who said it, but the rule of thumb is to increase the Civs and City-State by 50% seems to be a good way to counter that problem.


    Building production... yes... not very well balanced. I am keeping an eye for how it improves.


    Wonders, yes... most of them are underwhelming.
     
  13. Ikael

    Ikael King

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    It seems that in the end, it all boils down to a "builders VS warmongers" type of debate, with Civ IV being the best game for people that love to build an empire VS Civ V being the best game for people that love to build, hum, armies.

    I do know that turn based wargames can be awesome (I am a huge fan of Advance Wars, for instance), but the civilization series was the only game in the market that made you feel as if you were building an empire. Now we have losted a unique experience and got in return, yet another wargame (because we were running short of those!). Horray for genre diversity.
     
  14. zonk

    zonk Prince

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    Re: Social Policies

    I'm growing to like SPs -- but I still don't like them as a replacement. Rather, they should have been a modifier and/or limiter to civics/government.

    The big problem most people who prefer SPs to civics point to is the constant civic change, virtually on a dime, sometimes really radical -- with, at worst -- a few turns of anarchy.

    The solution - and why I think they would have worked so well with SPs - would be to link the two....

    Rather than different SP trees locking out other trees, certain civics could lock out SPs (or conversely, unlocking a certain SP either locks out a civic or makes it cost a lot more). Or - drop the anarchy-4-civ-change penalty and instead, penalize culture points when you change civics... provide culture bonuses if you stick with the same civics longer.

    With everything so top down in CiV -- I think it's imperative that the game provide MORE "top down" options... MORE modifiers... MORE ways to tweak at the empire level -- a lot of the "so many boring next turn complaints" would be ameliorated if there was more to do and think about in those gaps between SPs or wars -- and having a civic-SP synergy to think about would help some of that.
     
  15. zonk

    zonk Prince

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    Ironically -- as someone that was a very peaceful (or tried to be a very peaceful) "builder" in IV, I find V a heck of a lot easier. I like IV (to be fair, I like BTS w/ the RoM/AND mod) more than V -- but I'm a heck of lot "better", in terms of 'winning', in V than IV.

    I don't disagree with you -- I agree, IV is a lot more fun for "empire builders" who like to chase each and every wonder, who love to specialize cities and farm gold, hammers, science, etc in specific cities... but in IV, I really never got to the point where I could beat harder levels consistently.

    A lot of this was because, as a non-warmonger, my army was generally among the smallest... I rarely built much more than necessary to garrison my cities. Consequently - the minute an AI decided I was to be eaten, my games went downhill fast... unless I was strong enough diplomatically to turn other civs on the attacker, etc.

    In V -- this doesn't hurt me in the least. I can get units from militaristic city states and you don't want army bloat in V anyway. Take that together with city defense, and V is actually an easier game for a builder.... unfortunately, easier doesn't correlate to "more fun". Maybe a part of that is the challenge aspect.
     
  16. milk_milk

    milk_milk Chieftain

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    Well... Im disappointed.

    When i went to buy Civ 5 i expected a better/improved version of Civ4. Civ4 was worked out pretty well already, maybe some features change, some new features added. BUT NOW CUT OUT HALF OF THE GAME! I feel like playing a demo version. Why is that? They wanna sell 2 Add-ons?....


    Ofc change is interesting... but its just boring compared to civ 4. I want strategies, flexbiliy, the feeling of building up an empire and leading it, making my decisions important. Now it just feels kinda, i dont know... dumb? If i wanna play war i buy an rts... Civ 4 had a rly great mix. And why not just introduce a flexible war system and leave the well working economy system alone (or improve it), but not cripple it thx...

    And a game like civ needs expansion, over... i dont like having 7 cities and done. Whats the point?

    Even this policy system, interesting, flexible... IF U COULD CHANGE THOSE. Great, i plan my whole policy system 6000 years ahead, hooray... Im wondering, they made civ4, they played it, they noticed people loved it... and then they go and make civ5?... They didnt test it or what? Didnt they notice anything?...

    And btw.. more options for games, similar to civ 4?... ^^


    Im hoping for some really good mods :)


    How is it possible to go 3 steps back with a fifth episode of a game...
     
  17. Packers

    Packers Chieftain

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    I am late to the game. I bought Civ4 only after the Mac version came out, so that kind of dates me. When I get a chance to play to the game, I will waste the weekend (which does not make the wife too happy). I normally win on Nobel, but that is the extent of my ability.

    This is a long winded way to ask: I was not around when Civ4 came out. Was there this much consternation about it compared to Civ3? Are the concerns about Civ5 similar to concerns raised way back about Civ4?
     
  18. Falk

    Falk Prince

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    The only thing I really like a lot about Civ5 is the new combat system. Aside from the combat AI being rubbish, it's much more fun to invade another civ now than it was in Civ4. So yeah, if you play the game as a wargame, it sure has its merits.

    While I actually like the new happiness system I do agree that a Civ4 with 5's combat mechanics would be vastly superior to both Civ4 and 5.

    There were many concerns and much criticism but it was very different to what's going on now. For me the major problem was that Civ4 was not running on my graphics card so I had it shelved for many weeks... :D

    Obviously when you change things there are always people who are not going to like it. Not because people are "afraid of change" which is more of an excuse than an argument, but because different people like different things. Civ5 changed much more than Civ4 did, so naturally more people disagree with the path Firaxis has taken.

    For me this is the first Civ game (including Alpha Centauri) that feels like a simple little boardgame, the first Civ game that does not make me feel like the great leader of a civilization. So that's a huge change and thus I have much more to complain about than was the case with Civ4 when it was released. That game did not change the feel of the game much, if at all.
     
  19. Iberian

    Iberian Prince

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    CiV is war game now. Mostly because it doesn't pay to build an empire on your own. The easiest way to win is to go to war.

    This can change drastically though as balance changes are made. More production/more buildings/less cultural penalty for building citys/cheaper courthouses/better producing tiles.

    Just tweaking those I think would make the game a lot more fun. Plus allowing you to respec your SP's for 10% the current SP cost would be cool.

    I know people say you can't just mindlessly build every building but as it is now you just mindlessly build military units because building more than 3 buildings is stupid. I like playing the builder style, don't make it very hard to do just make it another viable option in the list of a lot of options.

    Lots of potential in this game. Just kind of boring now because of the slow pace of playing a builder civ. My warring Rome/Builder civ was fun but that became tedious towards the end, just like every civ game has been since the first release. Once the game is won it is going to be tedious. This was actually less so since I conquered just a couple of cities and their capital of the last civ instead of their whole empire.
     
  20. Mathochism

    Mathochism Chieftain

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    Unfortunately, that argument doesn't hold since I prefer Civ V despite almost always going for a non-domination victory.
     

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