Italy: The Two Leader Solution

[Metecury]

I think Cesare or Lucrezia Borgia would be interesting. Granted they're more well-known -- their family was notorious. Their daddy might be interesting too, but I doubt Firaxis would want to portray a Pope as a corrupt Mafia boss, even though that's basically what Rodrigo Borgia was.

Lucrezia might be a bit like Catherine de Medici, but more dangerous. Sort of a "power behind the throne" type. I think she'd actually act very sweet and coy and demure and just have this little glint in her eye. She'd agree to all your requests and be very amicable. And then... backstab!

Her brother Cesare would be a bit more overt in his aggression, but I would still expect him to launch a full blown espionage campaign to sabotage all your stuff before declaring war. Do not get on his bad side.

Lucrezia gets my vote, both because the game needs to increase its female quota a bit and because I think she'd be really challenging to play against.

I think pope Alexander VI is more likely to appear than his sons, he is not really more controversial than other leaders, they have all done morally questionable things. Still I'm pretty sure either Florence or Venice would take the priority over the Papal States and another slot would probably go to Victor Emanuel II since he unified the country (also we would get a sweet Bersaglieri unique unit). A couple of renaissance leaders and a Risorgimento leader would be all that Italy needs, the problem is just finding a civ ability broad enough to cover both periods wile still remaining characteristic and not too general and bland. Of course leaders abilities can make up for it I assume.

 

[The Kingmaker]

It's not that Alexander VI is controversial in and of himself.

It's the idea of Firaxis saying, "oh, and we've included a Pope in the game this time as well. And by the way, he's a corrupt murderer."

 

[The Kingmaker]

If they did Cesare Borgia, his leader agenda could be called "Machiavelli's Prince" (of which he was the model).

Most likely to backstab if he thinks you're weak, or soften up with espionage if he thinks you're strong.

 

[The Kingmaker]

I keep seeing people saying Italy isn't an option because it was comprised of city-states.

The thing is, so was Ancient Greece, and they're a mainstay.

 

[Phrozen]

I keep seeing people saying Italy isn't an option because it was comprised of city-states.

The thing is, so was Ancient Greece, and they're a mainstay.

So was Germany for a very long time. Even when it was nominally the HRE, the various electors held more power most of the time then the Emperor himself. In fact, they usually elected weaker Emperors. You can still see this today among the various parts of Germany have slightly different cultures and social mores.

 

[luigilime]

Historically Italy is so full of works of art and monuments because the competing city states had huge amounts of money to patronage the artists so i think we should focus on an ability that represents that like the piazza replacement for the commercial hub that gives maybe bonus gold if it's adjacent to a wonder and discounts for buying great people.
I was thinking on giving Italy the ability to pay gold to boost the construction of wonders.
As for the 3 leaders i think they have to be from the most iconic states like Florence,Milan and Venice.
Venice was much more important than Genoa and influenced countries as far away as China and England (there's a good reason why a lot of Shakespeare's plays are set in the Venetian republic) and Genoa was much more marginal.
Like Cavour as leader with Turin as capital
Though seeing John Curtin I'm sort of thinking a WW2 scenario is coming with all the leaders such as, unfortunately, Mussolini and Hitler.
For the leadees:
Florence, Lorenzo de Medici, diplomatic/culture focus
Milan, Gian Galeazzo Visconti, military focus
Venice, Enrico Dandolo, gold focus
Turin, Camillo Benso Cavour, industrial focus

 

[The Kingmaker]

Great ideas. I'm still trying to come up with a decent idea for how to implement a Borgia leader.

 

[luigilime]

I'm already imagining playing as Italy and listening that wonderful opera music that most definitely will play underneath
I was thinking about Verdi's "la Donna è mobile" or maybe that famous Neapolitan song "funiculi funicula"

 

[king of nowhere]

there are at least two different suggestions for italy in the "design your own civ", and I've only looked after page 15. both the renaissance with patronage of the arts and trade, and the modern age as touristic and luxury powerhouse, are viable options and would have options for interesting gameplay.
to emphasize a division in city states, I would like an ability where every city has a different bonus (chosen at random) and can possibly produce a different unique unit or district. I suggested it for a european union civ, where every city would get the traits of a random european civ.

Though seeing John Curtin I'm sort of thinking a WW2 scenario is coming with all the leaders such as, unfortunately, Mussolini and Hitler.

I can imagine a mussolini with the leader ability "when there was him": gain permanently 1 amenity for every swamp you clear, and faster road movement
(explanation for non-italians: there are some fascism nostalgic in italy who give him credit for two things: having reclaimed some swamps (hence the amenity for clearing swamp), and having made the trains run on time (hence the faster movement, though this one is hystorically inaccurate). speeches lauding mussolini for the few good things he did often start with "when there was him, [insert something]". they often contain the expression "we were better off when we were worst off (si stava meglio quando si stava peggio, in italian a common stockphrase to complain about modern times; it has been used since the roman times, making you wonder how ancient are exactly those ancient times when people were happier)

 

[CivLuvah]

to emphasize a division in city states, I would like an ability where every city has a different bonus (chosen at random) and can possibly produce a different unique unit or district

It's a good idea and I agree that it can be used as a mechanic for the Italian civ. However it might be too complex game wise? That's a flaw in this mechanic.

 

[ViterboKnight]

A lot of thoughts about it!! Without any order!!!!

Papal States can be a very particular choice, although it could tend to make the city of Rome a bit of overused!!! There is the Vatican City, but it is a more recent term (last two centuries), while Papal States exist since 700AD!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papal_States
Anyway, it could be cool to use the Swiss Guards as a UU.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss_Guards
The unique ability? Maybe a kind of Civ5 Venice (a sort of One City Challenge with some unique extra bonuses).

About the most relevant cities or dukedoms of Italy history:
Venice and Florence, IMO, are by far the most important ones and surely would deserve a role.
Milan and Naples are other important cities and could be extra choices.

Maybe, Venice and Milan could cover an earlier age (about 1000-1200 AD), while Florence and Naples are a later age (1400-1700 AD).
Venice could use its superior ships as UU. Milan...mmmm... some kind of Soldier of Fortune, perhaps? Or better to give it to Naples?

In addition, a unified Italy could be taken into account, as Kingdom of Italy (1861-1946), and there are two possible UUs that could be used:
Bersagliere: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bersaglieri
Carabiniere: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carabinieri
The leader could be easily identified as Vittorio Emanuele II, with another possible choice being Mussolini.

 

[king of nowhere]

For a unified italy, the unique unit should be the alpini
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpini
not only they have widespread international recognition among the military, but their role of infantry specialized in mountain warefare would make them more interesting than a UU that's just an upgraded version of a regular unit.
Plus, my father was a member, I'd like to name an elite alpini unit after him and then show him the game

though bersaglieri could also be interesting units, they could have faster movement, or they could be a melee unit that automatically makes a ranged attack (at reduced power, for balance reason) before engaging in melee.

as for the carabinieri, I don't know what role they could have. they are basically paramilitary police. If there was a corruption mechanic like in civs 1 to 3 (and possibly 4 if we include the maintenance cost), then they would be neat as a military unit that reduces corruption when garrisoned into a city, but with the current game, I don't see any interesting role for them to have.

 

[luigilime]

Italy definitely has to make tons of money, gain a huge amount of great people and building wonders. However it'll make it very similar to france and Egypt how could we make it unique?

 

[Phrozen]

Italy definitely has to make tons of money, gain a huge amount of great people and building wonders. However it'll make it very similar to france and Egypt how could we make it unique?

Maybe make their Civ ability that when they expend a great person they get an (additional) bonus amount of culture, science, production, or gold depending on the type of Great Person. Also probably they would need a unique commercial district.

 

[king of nowhere]

I don't see exactly italy as an economical powerhouse - and not because of the current economical situation. ok, italy is fine in that regard, both as a modern country and in the renaissance, but no better than many other european countries. the traditional european money civs are england and denmark.

Italy is historically a cultural and touristic powerhouse, so that is the side that should be emphasized. the question remains, how different is that from france? good question, because italy and france are rather similar in their traditional strong points. Italian food, french food. rome, paris. the tour eiffel and louvre, the colosseum and michelangelo's chapel. I wouldn't be surprised if americans were fuzzy about the difference between the two countries. Actually, I wouldn't be able to give a clear-cut answer to the question "what's the difference between italian and france". different countries with very different histories, but sharing many similarities. I can think of two things to differentiate:
1) as seat of vatican's city, italy was more strongly influenced by religion. so it could be a cultural civ with some sinergy bonus between religion and faith, like "religious art: theater district adjacency bonus give faith in addition to culture, and holy site adjacency bonus give culture in addition to faith".
2) due to its position in the middle of the mediterranean, italy had a huge trade network. So it could be something like "maritime republics: +1 culture for every civilization to which you have a trade route (increases with eras to keep relevant later on); can sell resources you are buying from another civ".

 

[luigilime]

I don't see exactly italy as an economical powerhouse - and not because of the current economical situation. ok, italy is fine in that regard, both as a modern country and in the renaissance, but no better than many other european countries. the traditional european money civs are england and denmark.

Italy is historically a cultural and touristic powerhouse, so that is the side that should be emphasized. the question remains, how different is that from france? good question, because italy and france are rather similar in their traditional strong points. Italian food, french food. rome, paris. the tour eiffel and louvre, the colosseum and michelangelo's chapel. I wouldn't be surprised if americans were fuzzy about the difference between the two countries. Actually, I wouldn't be able to give a clear-cut answer to the question "what's the difference between italian and france". different countries with very different histories, but sharing many similarities. I can think of two things to differentiate:
1) as seat of vatican's city, italy was more strongly influenced by religion. so it could be a cultural civ with some sinergy bonus between religion and faith, like "religious art: theater district adjacency bonus give faith in addition to culture, and holy site adjacency bonus give culture in addition to faith".
2) due to its position in the middle of the mediterranean, italy had a huge trade network. So it could be something like "maritime republics: +1 culture for every civilization to which you have a trade route (increases with eras to keep relevant later on); can sell resources you are buying from another civ".

I'm sorry to stop you there but historically Italians made a huge amount of money with trade and manufacturing.
Remember the first banks in history were Italian and that the Genoese financed the kingdom of Spain while the Florentines the kingdom of France.
There is a Lombard Street in every English city because it was an Italian trading spot.
And also France is similar to Italy because they copied them, stole a huge amount of artwork every invasion they did and wanted their capital as great as Rome was, there's a french proverb that goes like this " seule Paris est digne de Rome, seule Rome est digne de Paris"(only Paris is worthy of Rome, only Rome is worthy of Paris).
So an economic bonus for Italy wouldn't be bad.

 

[king of nowhere]

I never said that italy wasn't good economically. I'm merely saying it isn't its main shtick. I'm considering it from a game balance point of view: you can't have a civilization that has bonus to money, culture, and great people. either it would be totally broken, or the bonuses would be so small that they would be useless. So you have to focus on one bonus. money is traditionally associated with england or denmark, culture and wonders with france, so italy needs something that lets it stand out, be a strong culture-oriented civ without being a copy of other culture-oriented civs, and while being balanced with others.

 

[CivLuvah]

so italy needs something that lets it stand out, be a strong culture-oriented civ without being a copy of other culture-oriented civs, and while being balanced with others.

If that's your suggestion, then maybe with diplomacy in general? The Italian city-states were the birthplace of modern international diplomacy. Someone has to make sure that those petty states don't obliterate themselves out of the map.

Then once the multiple leaders come in we can employ the specific orientations each leader is associated with. So for Florence you have culture; Milan, industry; Venice & Genoa, commerce; etc.

 

[luigilime]

Why not have a bonus on trade and gaining gold, and then have the ability to buy great people cheaper than everyone else and to be able to buy production towards a wonder.
That would make it stand out from the other wonder/culture oriented civs.
And maybe the unique building can have bonus artwork slots.

 

[The Kingmaker]

I think the Piazza unique district could provide both wealth and culture. The question is, should it replace the theater square or the commercial hub?