Filling in the gaps - Charting the optimal Civ Switches

j51 said:
Instead of Nok, Ife could work as an antiquity civ in the same paradoxical way that Khmer does. A coastal west African line could be: Ife-Benin-Asante
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You might be right. It being involved in the Trans Sahara trade could also lead into Songhai.
 
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j51 said:
Instead of Nok, Ife could work as an antiquity civ in the same paradoxical way that Khmer does. A coastal west African line could be: Ife-Benin-Asante
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Ife would use most of the cities i used for my oyo city list. both are affiliated with the yoruba.
 
Lord Lakely said:
Ife would use most of the cities i used for my oyo city list. both are affiliated with the yoruba.
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They both are Yoruba states. Ife is a good choice for antiquity in particular because its empire was the predecessor to other Yoruba states as well as Edo/Benin. It’s a well documented starting origin point for a lot of cultures like the Khmer.
 
Ife is a good candidate for Antiquity, but unfortunately it is kind of obscure in some points. I couldn’t find any suitable candidate for the associated wonder in my research, unless they consider making the Igbo Olokun sacred grove a wonder, since it seems there were some sanctuaries there, as much as I suspect that might be somewhat controversial.
 
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What if you just named the Civ 'Yoruba'? The Exploration and Modern lines can then be taken in a different direction.
 
East Africa
Aksum -> Adal Sultanate or Zagnwe -> Ethiopian Empire
Nubia/Kush -> Makuria -> Sennar Sultanate
West Africa
Ghana Empire -> Songhai -> Sokoto Sultanate
Europe and America:
Rome/Greece -> Byzantium -> Kingdom of Greece
Goths or Rome -> Holy Roman Empire -> Austria-Hungary
Rome -> Frankish Kingdom -> French Imperial
Rome -> Portugal -> Brazil
Maya -> Aztecs -> Mexican
Old Norse -> Kyivan Rus -> Russia
Old Norse -> Icelandic -> Sweden
Asia:
Persia -> Sassanids -> Qajar
Silla -> Goryeo -> Meiji Japan
Yamato -> Japan Sengoku -> Meiji Japan
 
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Lord Lakely said:
What if you just named the Civ 'Yoruba'? The Exploration and Modern lines can then be taken in a different direction.
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It's also possible for the ancient civ to be Ijebu, since it does have a documented wonder that stood the test of time that being Sungbo's Eredo/Eredo Sungbo

Unfortunately the Ife Empire didn't really leave much behind that could work for an associated wonder as it's far more known for its lifelike artefacts (albeit the Havana Harbour didn't belong to the Pirate Republic in reality), although Igbo Olokun is one of its major feats it left behind, to even include it would probably require a lot more research and work for FXS as they'd need permission from the keepers of the shrine to let alone even see it or visit it. A safer option would be Oke Ora as it dates back to the founding of Ile-Ife, given how Dur-Sharrukin (Assyria's associated wonder) is literally a city I think it would still work as a good wonder

(Although this may come off as bias since I am Yoruba it is technically possible for there to be a full Yoruba civ progression line quite like with China and India as it would be Ife -> Ijebu (could be ancient by the Khmer rule but fits better as exploration) -> Oyo)

I think for the West African Coast progression as a whole it could work like this, in antiquity there's Ife, in exploration there's Ijebu, Nri and Benin and in modern there's Asante and Oyo (or even a more radical option in the form of Liberia)
 
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Kankan said:
It's also possible for the ancient civ to be Ijebu, since it does have a documented wonder that stood the test of time that being Sungbo's Eredo/Eredo Sungbo

Unfortunately the Ife Empire didn't really leave much behind that could work for an associated wonder as it's far more known for its lifelike artefacts (albeit the Havana Harbour didn't belong to the Pirate Republic in reality), although Igbo Olokun is one of its major feats it left behind, to even include it would probably require a lot more research and work for FXS as they'd need permission from the keepers of the shrine to let alone even see it or visit it. A safer option would be Oke Ora as it dates back to the founding of Ile-Ife, given how Dur-Sharrukin (Assyria's associated wonder) is literally a city I think it would still work as a good wonder

(Although this may come off as bias since I am Yoruba it is technically possible for there to be a full Yoruba civ progression line quite like with China and India as it would be Ife -> Ijebu (could be ancient by the Khmer rule but fits better as exploration) -> Oyo)

I think for the West African Coast progression as a whole it could work like this, in antiquity there's Ife, in exploration there's Ijebu, Nri and Benin and in modern there's Asante and Oyo (or even a more radical option in the form of Liberia)
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I only have a vague notion of west-African history, so I greatly appreciate the feedback. Antiquity Africa is a hard nut to crack due to a lack of online records, but i do think west-Africa and east-Africa should get more development. What we have so far is pretty bare bones.
 
Lord Lakely said:
I only have a vague notion of west-African history, so I greatly appreciate the feedback. Antiquity Africa is a hard nut to crack due to a lack of online records, but i do think west-Africa and east-Africa should get more development. What we have so far is pretty bare bones.
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No problem!

It would also absolutely be nice to have a West African civ that isn't Mali or Songhai for once. Some kingdoms and empires are also quite hard to place due to them lasting for a very long time such as Nri (9th century - 1912), Kanem-Bornu (700-1902), Benin (1180-1897)

I personally think something like this for West African civs would be best:

1763802328545.png



East Africa is also in need of more civs, this case is a little more over the place as this is also an attempt to fill the gaps surrounding Buganda
1763803163019.png
 
I do have my eye on Adal as the link between Aksum and Ethiopia (I think *three* Abyssinian kingdoms is a bit many, but two is certainly realistic. Aksum's Civilopedia entry hints at Ethiopia as a planned Civ). If we get three Abyssinian Civs, the middle portion probably should be called Zagwe (after the dynasty) or Showa (after the region).

Rather than Swahili, I believe Nubia/Kush should be the second antiquity Civ from East Africa. (the central/southern role can be taken by the Bantu). Nubia's Civ6 kit can work for Civ7 as well. (All it lacks is social policies and a unique civilian, but both should be doable.) Swahili itself can be added in Exploration as an umbrella Civ for the entire East Coast, including the Kilwa.

The kingdom of Darfur is a good candidate for Modern to continue a line that starts in Nubia, especially now that it looks like modern Egypt isn't going to happen.

I currently don't have my file open but I'd say for each Africa the lines should be something like this:

Antiquity: Askum & Nubia
Exploration: Swahili & Adal
Modern: Ethiopia & Darfur

Additionally, I can see the following tie-ins:

Aksum can lead to a Malagasy kingdom (Merina or Madagascar proper) and Yemen
Adal can lead to Ottomans and Oman
Swahili can lead to Oman and Buganda
Nubia can lead to an empire near the east of West Africa, such as Kanem-Bornu.

Darfur can be 'entered' via Songhai and Kongo
Swahili can be 'entered' via Bantu and Assyria (which substitutes for 'Antiquity Arabia' in this game)


For West-Africa, I agree that the Ife kingdom is a good place to start for a three act Nigerian line. I am personally fine with Songhai as the representation for the Hausa, and Ife can represent the Yoruba. In Modern, we can then branch out to maybe Kanem Bornu or Dahomey

Separately from the general Nigerian line, I'd also like to see one Civ per era from the region that functions as an 'alternative' path. So this is where we would get things like Wagadu, Jolof, Ashanti, etc.

Tentatively, my suggestion for West-Africa would be:

Antiquity: Wagadu & Ife
Exploration: Songhai & Jolof
Modern: Ashanti & Kanem-Bornu

Tie-ins:

Carthage can lead to Songhai & Jolof
Ife can lead to Kongo, Swahili & Zimbabwe
Wagadu can lead to Amazigh, and Morocco

Kanem-Bornu can be 'entered' via the East African line.

I'll mull over North, South and Central Africa during my workout later today...x
 
Kankan said:
No problem!

It would also absolutely be nice to have a West African civ that isn't Mali or Songhai for once. Some kingdoms and empires are also quite hard to place due to them lasting for a very long time such as Nri (9th century - 1912), Kanem-Bornu (700-1902), Benin (1180-1897)

I personally think something like this for West African civs would be best:

View attachment 748499


East Africa is also in need of more civs, this case is a little more over the place as this is also an attempt to fill the gaps surrounding Buganda
View attachment 748500
Click to expand...
I'd consider the Bantu as the main starting point for Sub-Saharan Africa. Nok could also serve as a good starting civilization for the African continent, but it is more limited in terms of available information and unique elements, such as associated wonders (well, since they’re already choosing entire cities as wonders for some civs, I wouldn’t be opposed to something like Taruga being used as the Nok wonder.)
 
Lord Lakely said:
I do have my eye on Adal as the link between Aksum and Ethiopia (I think *three* Abyssinian kingdoms is a bit many, but two is certainly realistic. Aksum's Civilopedia entry hints at Ethiopia as a planned Civ). If we get three Abyssinian Civs, the middle portion probably should be called Zagwe (after the dynasty) or Showa (after the region).

Rather than Swahili, I believe Nubia/Kush should be the second antiquity Civ from East Africa. (the central/southern role can be taken by the Bantu). Nubia's Civ6 kit can work for Civ7 as well. (All it lacks is social policies and a unique civilian, but both should be doable.) Swahili itself can be added in Exploration as an umbrella Civ for the entire East Coast, including the Kilwa.

The kingdom of Darfur is a good candidate for Modern to continue a line that starts in Nubia, especially now that it looks like modern Egypt isn't going to happen.

I currently don't have my file open but I'd say for each Africa the lines should be something like this:

Antiquity: Askum & Nubia
Exploration: Swahili & Adal
Modern: Ethiopia & Darfur

Additionally, I can see the following tie-ins:

Aksum can lead to a Malagasy kingdom (Merina or Madagascar proper) and Yemen
Adal can lead to Ottomans and Oman
Swahili can lead to Oman and Buganda
Nubia can lead to an empire near the east of West Africa, such as Kanem-Bornu.

Darfur can be 'entered' via Songhai and Kongo
Swahili can be 'entered' via Bantu and Assyria (which substitutes for 'Antiquity Arabia' in this game)


For West-Africa, I agree that the Ife kingdom is a good place to start for a three act Nigerian line. I am personally fine with Songhai as the representation for the Hausa, and Ife can represent the Yoruba. In Modern, we can then branch out to maybe Kanem Bornu or Dahomey

Separately from the general Nigerian line, I'd also like to see one Civ per era from the region that functions as an 'alternative' path. So this is where we would get things like Wagadu, Jolof, Ashanti, etc.

Tentatively, my suggestion for West-Africa would be:

Antiquity: Wagadu & Ife
Exploration: Songhai & Jolof
Modern: Ashanti & Kanem-Bornu

Tie-ins:

Carthage can lead to Songhai & Jolof
Ife can lead to Kongo, Swahili & Zimbabwe
Wagadu can lead to Amazigh, and Morocco

Kanem-Bornu can be 'entered' via the East African line.

I'll mull over North, South and Central Africa during my workout later today...x
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When I was making the table I completely forgot Nubia which is my bad, and I think it could work as a 3 act line

Kush -> Makuria -> Funj/Sennar

I also used Swahili as a substitute for Bantu as I think Bantu would be as cluttered as Civ 5 Celts unless it gets unique Nomadic mechanics as otherwise that would be half of Africa as 1 civ
Kongo could also make for a good addition for Central Africa and lead into Buganda

I can definitely agree with Hausa being covered by Songhai
I'm personally in favour of there being multiple options in West Africa (and the game in general having a lot of civs in each region/continent where possible) to help fill up gaps and improve (and diversify) civ progression
Such as:

Antiquity: Wagadou, Ife
Exploration: Songhai, Benin, Ijebu, Jolof, Kanem (also in Central and leads to Kongo)
Modern: Sokoto, Tukulor, Oyo, Ashanti, Dahomey, Bornu
 
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Xandinho said:
I'd consider the Bantu as the main starting point for Sub-Saharan Africa. Nok could also serve as a good starting civilization for the African continent, but it is more limited in terms of available information and unique elements, such as associated wonders (well, since they’re already choosing entire cities as wonders for some civs, I wouldn’t be opposed to something like Taruga being used as the Nok wonder.)
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Sadly, very little of the Nok culture other than their sculptures which whilst it does tell a story about some parts of them culture such as usage of canoes and some of their soldiers (likely mainly hunters). For this reason, I picked Ife instead as although it isn't as far back as the Nok, it seemingly was a continuation of it and has quite a lot of surviving information dating back to it, so fortunately there is enough about it for a full Civ
 
Kankan said:
Sadly, very little of the Nok culture other than their sculptures which whilst it does tell a story about some parts of them culture such as usage of canoes and some of their soldiers (likely mainly hunters). For this reason, I picked Ife instead as although it isn't as far back as the Nok, it seemingly was a continuation of it and has quite a lot of surviving information dating back to it, so fortunately there is enough about it for a full Civ
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Do you have any idea what the associated wonder for Ife would be? I did some research a while ago and couldn’t find anything solid.
 
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