Its Boring

TheMeInTeam said:
At what point indeed...
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I'm open to other interpretations of Sid Meier's intent. What is yours? Do you think I was being too broad or too narrow, or entirely missing the mark?

Based on what I have seen, that was his intent.

The existence of human limitations doesn't preclude objective truths. Even if everyone was colorblind, red would still exist.

I may be wrong in my interpretation, but I am not saying a game is 'bad' because it doesn't conform to my ideals.
 
Gorbles said:
I take it you've never watched an actual cartoon, then.
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It's such a broad category that the distinction is close to meaningless when claiming civ 6 resembles one.

The association of cartoons to children is a cultural thing anyway, it's definitely not true everywhere. Even if you look at only US-produced cartoons (which cuts a huge piece of the medium out of the equation), the differences in art style, theme, and target audience are enormous. It's not reasonable to blanket Futurama, programming intended for ages <10, and South Park as "the same thing". Parents probably let their kids watch "Ed, Edd, and Eddy" (their mistake), but likely not some stuff that came on late on cartoon network...and contrast THOSE art styles!

When someone says "civ 6 is like a cartoon", what is the real complaint? They're not saying "civ 6 is like Hello Kitty" in most cases, or that it's like South Park. A trace of why people *actually* do or do not like the aesthetic would be useful. I reject a complaint of "this presentation is vaguely like another medium of which a percentage is intended for children, so I don't like it".

That's roughly as sound as saying you don't like a realistic-looking art style because the Wiggles are for children.
 
agonistes said:
I'm open to other interpretations of Sid Meier's intent. What is yours? Do you think I was being too broad or too narrow, or entirely missing the mark?

Based on what I have seen, that was his intent.

The existence of human limitations doesn't preclude objective truths. Even if everyone was colorblind, red would still exist.

I may be wrong in my interpretation, but I am not saying a game is 'bad' because it doesn't conform to my ideals.
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There are certainly objective truths. However, a subjective evaluation such as "boring" requires some agreed-upon criteria for measurements of any objective value to be useful.

I don't care much for "developer intent" or interpretations of it. Spending enough time on boards like ParadoxPlaza, I don't trust "developer intent" even when the developers say it, because they will state things inconsistent with their actions or other statements. It's an exercise in futility to argue on "intent" in the first place, unless we're presented with consistent basis for it. Let me know when that happens, since I haven't seen it in the strategy genre in recent memory.

To evaluate a game as "good" or "bad" does require some established rules to make that evaluation. For example, I consider a game where the controls are clunky and in some cases don't work to be "bad". Other people do not weight this failing nearly so strongly. How does anybody approach that issue "objectively"?
 
@Gorbles @TheMeInTeam

We can also do research on the Zelda fandom, who are very much split on yes, art direction, in fact much more than the Civ fandom.

There have been endless debates in the Zelda fandom over if Wind Waker is better or if Twilight Princess is better (and much of the debate centres on the art direction rather than the mechanics or the actual merits of either game).
 
God of Kings said:
@Gorbles @TheMeInTeam

We can also do research on the Zelda fandom, who are very much split on yes, art direction, in fact much more than the Civ fandom.

There have been endless debates in the Zelda fandom over if Wind Waker is better or if Twilight Princess is better (and much of the debate centres on the art direction rather than the mechanics or the actual merits of either game).
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It's not even a useful debate. What useful framework can you put up on either side? I could see arguments over puzzle quality, mechanical control, difficulty, money scaling, whatever. Civ 6 has equivalent versions of that too. The art style doesn't have that kind of backing, on either side of that particular fence.

I can't even grasp the rationale though. Is the complaint that these games with no true real world parallels don't look sufficiently realistic? Too realistic? I get complaints if the art makes two different-functioning things look similar or vice versa, or if the game is incongruous within its own framework (IE putting the master chief as a story line character in Wind Waker exactly like how he looks in Halo, yet everyone else in the game acts like it's normal)...but over the style itself? It's the kind of preference that's pure perception stuff.

"I know your opinion is wrong. I know this because you have stated that you have a different opinion than my own". It's fun to say to troll people, but there's no actual discussion there. I know visual experience is part of the immersion, but the designers have to pick SOMETHING, and that means it's not something else :/. I guess if it's a major barrier then w/e, play stuff that looks nice if that's sufficiently important.
 
No one has said the obvious. The game would cease to be boring if it had a competitive AI. You can only do so much with a SIM builder game. I only played Sim City 4 20 hours. You do need some kind of opposition.
 
@op:
"AI sucks"

Of course the AI sucks. AI sucks in almost every games on earth. Why don't you try multiplayer? It's where this game really shines. It's not even close.
 
It seems that i am the only happy person how barbs designed in this game . I have played more than 200 hours already and always dealt with them properly , call it luck maybe :D

I hope that after summer patch other weakly designed things will be fixed like diplomacy, AI and spies.
 
TheMeInTeam said:
It's not even a useful debate. What useful framework can you put up on either side? I could see arguments over puzzle quality, mechanical control, difficulty, money scaling, whatever. Civ 6 has equivalent versions of that too. The art style doesn't have that kind of backing, on either side of that particular fence.

I can't even grasp the rationale though. Is the complaint that these games with no true real world parallels don't look sufficiently realistic? Too realistic? I get complaints if the art makes two different-functioning things look similar or vice versa, or if the game is incongruous within its own framework (IE putting the master chief as a story line character in Wind Waker exactly like how he looks in Halo, yet everyone else in the game acts like it's normal)...but over the style itself? It's the kind of preference that's pure perception stuff.

"I know your opinion is wrong. I know this because you have stated that you have a different opinion than my own". It's fun to say to troll people, but there's no actual discussion there. I know visual experience is part of the immersion, but the designers have to pick SOMETHING, and that means it's not something else :/. I guess if it's a major barrier then w/e, play stuff that looks nice if that's sufficiently important.
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For me the art is ok, not really my cup of tea but does the job.

Mainly its the presentation. Civ's leaders have always been somewhat pretentious. This fit in with the games conceit. I mean think of what their supposed to represent. Now they sometimes come across as silly almost in a subtle Monty Pythonesque way. Funny the first few times but grating thereafter.

Gotag
 
Just for information , i closed barbs in one two of my games. The result is AI players became unbelievable powerful in the early and mid era. So barbs are giving hell to ai more than us i guess :D
 
What I'd change about barbarians is have them spawn a couple of units when you move next to their camp, about to attack them. It doesn't make sense that they have the ability to spawn several units when going on the offensive, but spawn none when their home is under attack.
 
How about this from my current game @Art Morte ... now I know why they call them wonders... silly barbs have not worked out what a back door is yet
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lol, that's pretty cool. From how many camps have they come from? Surely not all from that single camp. Anyway, that is a bit of a mess to clean up with just one knight x)
 
@Victoria Is Scythia in game? I believe they get double spawn if they are. You pipped me by one, I've had 14 on screen at once, you have 15.
 
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