Jingoism

[VoodooAce]

I am soooo tired of ALL nationalist right wingers. Everybody is always so sure they are right, the side they have chosen is right, and that all others are inherently wrong.

Nobody will listen to ANY reason.

The Palestinians refuse to admit that continuously blowing up Israelis while they're out shopping for that night's supper is contributing to the perpetuation of the conflict there. It's all the oppressive Israelis' fault.

The Israelis refuse to listen to reason and continue to settle areas that they know damn well is going to piss of the Palestinians, then when a bomb goes off on their street, they're shocked and claim complete innocence.

Thing is you have soooo many people on each side that WILL NEVER give the other side the time of day. Only when each side is willing to listen to their own liberal countreymen will there ever be peace.

So many Americans, citing the fear that these terrorists are going to ruin the American way of life, are perfectly willing to allow Bush and Ashcroft to go anead and beat them to the punch. And we were so willing to do to them what they did to us, but we're right and they're wrong. A lot of people in this very forum actually came right out and said that we should be sure to kill 5,000 Afghan civilians, since that's how many died here.

Now we have posts explaining to us how the Chinese massacre wasn't really all that bad, and, in the best traditions of Reagan and Nixon, are saying that maybe the students brought it on themselves. And I'm sure they can justify the Chinese government restricing human rights and free speech. All for the good of the nation/people, blah blah blah....always the same. Whether you're a Nazi or a Communist.

As long as people are willing to be just a little biased toward their own nation or group, which also means you are just a little less likely to see the other sides' point in any conflict, we will always HAVE these 'conflicts'.

In other words, why can't we all just get along??????

And, I guess that sounds like a lame and/or rhetoric type question, but I'm serious. How long will it be before there is world peace? Never?

Just curious.

 

[ApocalypseKurtz]

You are absolutely correct. I have posted tirelessly on this topic and frankly, I'm starting to tire. I think in America the problem is that the vast majority of the public: A) does not care a whole lot about politics, which means they are eaisly fooled by politician big-talk, B) is not educated in politics, which allows them to be fooled by politicians talking tough instead of trying for real solutions, and C) just live with the two-party system instead of trying to change it. I mean, lets face it, Democrats and Republicans are not very different now a days. I used to be diehard Democrat but I am losing faith in them real fast. I have devoted myself to Green Party / Socialist Party now. Unfortunately, the average American will not even look at what these parties have to say. The American public has been so saturated with anti-communist propoganda, we will not elect someone any farther left than the average Democrat. Recently we have witnessed a great surge in nationalism which will only cause more war, more hatred, and more violence.

I am still waiting for the rest of the nation to realize that the only way we will have peace in this world is if there is no nationalism. Nationalism is hatred of foreign naitons, disguised as love of your own nation.

My only hope lies with the youth of this nation. From what I have experienced firsthand, 80% of youths who care about politics and are informed about politics are liberals, and the majority of the rest would be liberals if they were only informed.

 

[shirleyrocks]

Very nice post, Ace...I support your comments in whole.

 

[redtom]

I agree totally with Palestinian demands, it was originally there land. I disagree with Zionist claims of it being rightfully there's because it was historically there's.

That means England claims most of France, part of Germany, America etc..

Norway gets Shetlands, Orkneys and other parts of Great Britain.

Etc. etc. untill everyone is claiming every square foot of the world by many different people, peoples and nation states.

They have no right to be there

Redtom

 

[BlueMonday]

Unfortuneatly true, VoodooAce. I'm afraid it's just something that we have to deal with. However, you are kind of making gross generalizations about all people of all nationalities. There are millions of people who see things the other way around, and there are a couple hundred who see the truth of the matter. It's just that for the most part, we don't want to hear all of it.

Humans: The Herd Animal!

 

[Alcibiaties of Athenae]

Non-sense like this post shows the ignorence of why the Mid-east knows no peace.

Originally posted by redtom
I agree totally with Palestinian demands, it was originally there land. I disagree with Zionist claims of it being rightfully there's because it was historically there's.

It was NEVER Palestinain land.
Before 1948 it was a British mandate (That was promised to the Jews by Lord Balflour in WWI, when it was Ottoman land)Ottoman land, before that it belonged to Persia, before that Rome, before that...the JEWS.
NEVER was it "Palestine".
That's just a popular myth, Learn about what you speak, BEFORE you put your foot in your mouth in this fashion.

That means England claims most of France, part of Germany, America etc..

And what is the Palestinian claim to lands they never lived on and was never their's?

Norway gets Shetlands, Orkneys and other parts of Great Britain.

I think we already see how silly this circular logic is, no need to go further.

Etc. etc. untill everyone is claiming every square foot of the world by many different people, peoples and nation states.

yes, kill all the dirty jews (That's what the Pals teach their children, BTW).

They have no right to be there

If your referring to the Pals, your on the mark.
If I was Israel, i would give those murderers nothing but the death they so love to deal.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

Everybody is always so sure they are right, the side they have chosen is right, and that all others are inherently wrong.

You're talking about Right wingers? That sounds like a spot-on descrition of Leftists to me.

 

[polymath]

It has nothing to do with politics and settlement rights, and everything to do with human nature. IMO, you don't get to be the dominant life-form on the planet unless you are generally rapacious, greedy and ruthless. How many Neanderthals do you see around nowadays? I guess they must have been on 'our' land.

 

[Atros]

Originally posted by Alcibiaties of Athenae
Non-sense like this post shows the ignorence of why the Mid-east knows no peace.It was NEVER Palestinain land.
Before 1948 it was a British mandate (That was promised to the Jews by Lord Balflour in WWI, when it was Ottoman land)Ottoman land, before that it belonged to Persia, before that Rome, before that...the JEWS.
NEVER was it "Palestine".

Analogy:
So if my stone-age ancestor built a hut on, where your house is, in which your family has lived for several centuries, that means i can kick you out?

And who gives the British and Lord Balflour the right to give away other people's land where people who were born there live?

Sorry, i just gave your home to my friend who just moved here.

 

[knowltok]

We'll change when we are posed with an outside threat that pulls us together. That or we all suffer so much from our nationalism that we realize it is the cause of the problem. We are currently nowhere near suffering enough for this to happen.

Left, right, middle, up, and down are all convinced that theirs it the one true path. Human nature ensures that we are going to have unreconcilable differences of opinion.

Perhaps when the Martian colony throws off the yoke of Terran oppression and forges an armada of horribly beweaponed battlecruisers the people of earth will come together. Of course it will only last as long as the threat lasts.

 

[Strik]

Originally posted by redtom:
I agree totally with Palestinian demands, it was originally there land. I disagree with Zionist claims of it being rightfully there's because
it was historically there's.

That means England claims most of France, part of Germany, America etc..

Norway gets Shetlands, Orkneys and other parts of Great Britain.

Etc. etc. untill everyone is claiming every square foot of the world by many different people, peoples and nation states.

They have no right to be there Originally posted by redtom:



If this should be the case, I wwould not have a land to live on. boooooo

Ok serious, I think the isrealis should stop this oppression against the palistinians. They have to live in their restricted area, so my point of view is that they are captive in their own country. Yes there are isreali's living there now that wil never change. But as far as I see is that the isrealis are breaking every rule. And then some palistian straps himself with a couple of dynamite sticks and blows the hell out of them.

Ofcourse there is no way to approve this, but there is no way of stopping it if rules are broken over and over again.

isreali break rule. Palistinian blows. Isreali kills. Palistinian blows. Isreali kills. Palistinian blows. Stop this stupid fighting it gets you nowhere.

This pisses me off and now I am in a bad temper

 

[redtom]

If you thought what I said was Nazism or Anti-Semitism I'm quarter jewish, I have Jewish friends, I am even CIRCUMCISED. So don't start shout neo-Nazi's, you sound an Israeli. As soon as any sort of debate is called for anyone who disagrees with Israel is a dirty Arab or Nazis. That is simply not the case, theres plenty of anti-Zionist jews out there who disagree with this stupid homeland thing, YOU CAN BE BOTH JEWISH AND BRITISH or JEWISH AND PALESTINIAN (as a few were).

Historically, there is little contemporary and archeological proof for an united jewish state pre-Roman times other than the Bible.

Jews and Palestinians are one and the same:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/genes/article/0,2763,605806,00.html

I hate Israel, its just simply American imperialism gone terribly, terribly wrong.

I hate people telling people what to say and not to say-thats Fascism.

Redtom

 

[Cyberia]

Your a Dork Redtom.......

 

[knowltok]

>>I hate Israel, its just simply American imperialism gone terribly, terribly wrong. <<

Indeed it has. We were supposed to have conquered the entire middle east from our springboard in Israel. Our Glorious Legions were supposed to have marched to India by now, and had things gone right it would be The U.S. putting down the Chechnyans in our newest imperial conquest. Yes, American Imperial designs for Israel have gone terribly wrong indeed!


The above was a paid political statement with a 98% concentration of sarcasm. It does not in any way reflect the views of CFC, its staff, or affiliates.

 

[Lefty Scaevola]

Those of you who are upset by the existance of independent nations- states are doomed to be unhappy for the next several centuries.

 

[erdaad]

I got in an argument once with my friends very liberal girlfriend. She said that guns should be illegal in the United States.

My response: "Guns are legal because the citizen needs the ability to defend themselves should the government become to opressive. That's why we have the right to bear arms."

Her response: "Our government shouldn't have guns either!"

My response: "Then why we are living in our wonderful society (sarcasm), some country with guns will kindly take us over and take all of our rights away."

Her reponse: "Well that's just my ideal world."

The point of this is that human beings are violent by nature and we do try to control each other. Short of genetic engineering, you might as well accept that we won't be changing much. We have made a great deal of progress by making laws and civilizing our selves, but in the end we have a lot in common with the human from 20,000 years ago that clubbed the animal on the head and ate it raw. Anyone who wants to deny this and keep saying that we need to give peace a chance is denying reality. While I do admire your desire for peace and I too want peace, it is not the state of our world today. We must accept this and at the same time realize that due to the nature of our world, sometimes we must choose sides, and sometimes we must kill our fellow man.

Concerning Israel, from my perspective they are not the most peaceful country on the planet, nor are they always the most prudent. But imagine having a family member killed in a bombing that you didn't directly provoke. If my child were to be killed while shopping with his mother, I would be furious. Would anyone not understand my desire for revenge, would you condemn me for taking it, where's your humanity now, should I not be able to fight against those who have done my family harm. The problem is that both sides have very justifiable anger. Many of them have lost loved ones, and the hate is very deep, I would say a chance for a great solution is nil.

Well, I've droned on long enough, back to work.

 

[ApocalypseKurtz]

Actually, the right to own a gun is a very liberal notion. Liberals favor strong government intervention in the market, but as little intervention as possible in personal affairs. Conservatives are the opposite. I am a liberal, and I think guns should be legal to own, except for violent felons.

 

[erdaad]

I have found that most of the people that I talk to that are for gun control are liberals. I think saying that all liberals or all conservatives are for one paricular issue is a little too risky to assert.

My point in describing her story was that instead of spending all of her time dreaming about how wonderful the world could be if..., her time might be better spent looking at how the world actually is and doing what she could to make it better. My personal belief is that people who believe in peace at all costs make it that much easier for the "evil" people of the world to gain power. I am from the U.S., and I realize that our record is imperfect, we often put our nose where it doesn't belong. But compared to every other country on the planet, we as a society have done more to get rid of poverty, make people free, and when necessary die in foreign lands to protect the freedom of a country that can't defend itself. People are often so busy saying how were fighting for oil or fighting pointless wars agains communism that they miss the point, it was and is the right thing to do.

If the author of this post believes that we are guilty of jingoism because sometimes we have made mistakes in our foreign policy, that person is mistaken. Do you honestly think the world would be a better place without the United States.

Back to work, my productivity suffers even more.

 

[Blackadder]

Hey VoodooAce, it could be a lot nationally worse.

Examples:Republic of Pskov, Basque rep, Catalonia, Narvarra, Holy Roman Empire, Independant Italian states, Free Cornwall, Brittany, Burgundy, Flanders, and many other nations could be made from all the countries of the world.

If every individual could become a country, imagine the chaos! Fear is the best tool to bond humans, Fear. Nations have been created simply out of fear of neighbours. So to unite the world, something would have to scare the entire populace of Earth in such a way that they band together for common survival.

Unlikely example:- Say we colonized Mars and granted them independance. Mars soon finds itself running out of resources and needs them desperately. It has an army, and its nearest neighbour is (you guessed it) Earth. Mars finds that only by destroying Earth can it recover its valuable resources and refuses to take immagrants from Earth. War is declared. Do you think the world will argue and split up into fragments when so graet a threat lingers. When the threat is over and Mars (or Earth) is destroyed, then the internal squabbles will re-emerge.

I'm sorry I had to underline my point in such a silly thing as a war between Mars and Earth, but alien invasion stories just get old and boring..:lol :alien:

Note. I am not saying blowing up the Earth will replenish any materials on Mars!

 

[darkChild]

thats a pretty funny example, but u have a good point.. heh heh..