Discussion in 'Civ5 - General Discussions' started by Zanzibar, Jan 4, 2011.
Nope he just left.
Thormodr is by far the most intelligent poster in this thread. Everyone should be listening to his comments as he's more accurate than most of you can imagine.
Furthermore I can't believe how many of you forget so quickly. Jon was excellent with mod-work and as Jon has already mentioned... mod work his his primary focus on Elemental right now. Furthemore, Jon already joked about what was wrong in Civ V.
How can you possibly ask for more? Please stop being so pig-headed. All it does is make hard-core fans look like insane. Hopefully Firaxis or 2kgames will let some Firaxinate be open and interactive from this point on.
Jon's "mod-work", from all evidence, was rubbish. Don't try to rewrite history and/or reality.
What mod-work? Final Frontier was good looking and a very interesting concept, but it took massive work by other people at this site to make it remotely playable (and I do mean remotely). I don't know of any more stand alone mods, but his work on Espionage (Jon's contribution to BtS which got him the "co-lead" appelation from some here) was similarly prouchy (an old culchie slang I learned the meaning of when I did a bad job painting a bedroom for my parents this summer).
Well, I wouldn't say I am the most intelligent but thanks for the compliment.
Interesting quote found on the Stardock Forums:
To me it looks like the real culprit here is 2K Games.
Jon Shafer did the best he could with the resources he had. Sure he made a lot of mistakes but with his experience, I can't really blame him. He was put in a no win situation and was made to be the fall guy.
I will never buy another 2K Games' game again unless there are major changes made to that crappy company.
It's also criminal what they are doing to X-COM.
The greatest computer game of all time reduced to a crappy FPS.
That is, indeed, interesting and also not particularly surprising. I have friends who work in the software industry who've given me some insight into how this sort of thing happens, and the story in that quote sounds familiar.
It also seems to stack up against the way that Civ 5 plays -- a lot of graphical improvements without a lot of well-thought-out gameplay improvements, and meeting a "checklist" of "features" that were dictated by management without a lot of consideration for "why."
This also, I might add, highlights one of the GLARING problems with professional game review anymore -- the focus on the "pretty" over gameplay concerns (setting aside the whole "corporate shill" line of accusation...). And yeah, Civ 5 is definitely pretty....and I don't care.
If Shafer was indeed the fall guy here, then I suppose he did pretty well with the crap hand that was dealt him. That said, the product here that I've played is a huge disappointment and has taken me from a loyal customer to a very very cautious and pessimistic customer.
Again, this also strikes me as a common trend in gaming. Smaller, talented development houses get gobbled up by larger publishing companies who are more interested in the brand name of the title than in the talent BEHIND the title that made said titles good. Quite simply, they know that suckers will pay, as long as they can get a few good enough reviews from the usual sources, and will buy on brand name alone.
This trend isn't limited to gaming, either. It's everywhere in the entertainment industry. Why do you think so many crappy movies are "remakes" or "reimaginings" or "reboots" now? Simple: marketing. Brand names move crappy product better than a crappy product with no name. Why spend your money on development when you can just buy existing customer goodwill, run it into the ground a few times ('cause you know those poor schmucks will just keep coming back for more in the hopes that THIS time things will be different, baby), and make a buck? Why bother developing a quality GAME when you can have a cheaper, more profitable quality MARKETING STRATEGY?
Bingo. That's what annoys me so much about the X-COM announcement.
IGN's top 25 games of all time:
Civilization 4 in at #2
X-COM: UFO Defence is #1
Civilization 5 was a watered down crappy version that sold almost purely on name recognition and reputation alone.
X-COM will likely be the same.
It's a real shame that 2K Games can get away with this crap.
actually if you look at it, after the release of Civ 4, more or less all 2k titles have been recycled crap version of great games: railroads, colonization, civilization and now x-com come to mind
It is pretty sad.
It is a disgrace to the previous games.
They don't make them like they used to.
Which actually has lowered my respect for this guy even more.
A professional just doesn't do such things.
His (rather lame) jokes about Civ5 indicate one of two possible things:
He makes fun about the justified concerns of the fans or he makes fun about the former company.
Either way, it is so childish to do so that I can hardly express my disgust.
If there were some problems with Firaxis/2K/whomever, then either he should have pointed them out (which most probably he would not have been allowed to due to contractional reasons) or he just should have stayed silent about such issues.
And making fun about a considerable part of the fans isn't very professional either.
It just shows that this guy actually hasn't learned anything from the past months. He acts like a spoiled child.
He has proven not to be a good designer, and now he additionally has proven not to be professional. He just appears to be an immature jerk.
Same can be said of those who are blinded by their wishful thinking of a great game that is NOT.
How can he possibly learn with so many that see him as a hero?
"Every society deserves the government it has"... so does every game market deserve the designer it has. Obviously, the civ market has fallen to very low levels lately.
Actually, I think he showed a sense of humour joking about the streamlining and his big button joke. I think he must have read the "First screenshots of Civ VI" thread. Lol.
Jon Shafer certainly made some mistakes and he should be held accountable for that but streamlining and dumbing down the game was clearly a decision by the suits in 2K Games and their investors.
I think you are making a tempest out of a teacup here.
The point is you don't do this as a professional. Even less after you've left the company.
It clearly shows disrespect.
Indeed. I think his level of professionalism is already very, very clear.
I am certain that Jon Shafer is thoroughly dissatisfied with Civilization 5.
He was thrown into a no win situation to start. He clearly didn't have the experience to do the job and I'm sure he knew that. I think he did the best he could with the resources he had. Certainly he made a lot of mistakes but anyone would have in his situation.
He was also undercut and screwed over at every possible turn by 2K Games who were clearly more interested in their year end financial reports than making a quality game.
Really the PC game market has fallen to new lows. Just look at the new Final Fantasy.
I think he was doing it to show that he sympathizes with the hardcore fans that wanted a deep, enriching game experience.
You may not actually believe it but I think Jon Shafer is just as pissed off at how crappy ciV turned out as other hardcore fans of the game.
Some people here should look into careers predicting lottery numbers given that they "know" so much on so little information!
What was that Brad Wardell quote about the internet narrative almost never being right?
As an aside, Thormodr is amazing for his hot-and-cold swings on Schafer simply based on his changing team.
I disagree with this. Red Dead Redemption and Bioshock were brilliant games under the 2k label. I have great expectations of BioShock Infinite as well. Railroads and Colonization were big disappointments but Railroads mis-direction was entirely intentional because that's the game Sid wanted... it's just not the game most of us wanted.
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