Jon Shafer joins Stardock to work on elemental

[SuperJay]

This may have been posted earlier, but Jon did an interview at Gamasutra that's got some decent depth to it. (Ahh, the irony.) He discusses why he chose to move to Stardock from Firaxis, the fanbase reception of Civ 5, and his thoughts on the future of PC gaming among other things.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/6252/shafers_next_step_from_civ_to_.php?page=1

 

[SuperJay]

And there you go. In your post you divided the respondents in this thread into two categories: those who put all the blame on Shafer, and the reasonable ones. Once you're taken to task, you chicken out. Why? Because, as I said, people who consider Shafer as the only culprit for Civ V simply don't exist.

Again, you're taking a joke I made extremely literally and trying to prove... what? That the joke was not factually accurate? SHOCKING.

EDIT: This is extremely important for the discussion, because everybody who has faulted Shafer, only said that his responsibility for Civ V was much higher than that of an average coder's. That's a point worth arguing. Is "lead designer" only a meaningless title? If so, as someone said, let's call the janitor as "lead designer", and attribute absolutely no responsibility to anyone.

Well yeah, obviously his responsibility is higher than the average coder's. Does that even need to be said? Where did I say "Jon has no responsibility?" Absolutely he bears a portion of that. My comments were in regards to the perception that simply by joining Stardock, Jon would somehow contaminate Elemental or other Stardock games and make them terrible simply by proximity. Given that his role on Elemental and his role in Civ 5 are completely different, I don't think that's something anyone should be too worried about.

Stating that the people who say Shafer has a responsibility for Civ V given his title, are "crucifying him" is a cheap cop-out, trying to avoid the real, rational discussion. And THAT is why I'm taking you to task to back your words with any fact whatsoever. And your drama-queen histrionics won't work, trust me. You won't wiggle out of this one with histrionics alone.

You are really taking a single post very seriously. Why? Was my choice of words really so offensive? Are you angry or upset about my post? I didn't think I was making such a controversial, incendiary statement. Was it the use of the word "crucifying?" I want to understand why you're reacting so strongly to that one post.

(Do I need to point out that for someone who claims to desire "real, rational discussion" that your continued personal insults make you seem pretty hypocritical? If you can man up and drop the high-school attitude, we can talk like adults. If you're incapable of doing so, don't bother replying.)

 

[Thormodr]

This may have been posted earlier, but Jon did an interview at Gamasutra that's got some decent depth to it. (Ahh, the irony.) He discusses why he chose to move to Stardock from Firaxis, the fanbase reception of Civ 5, and his thoughts on the future of PC gaming among other things.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/6252/shafers_next_step_from_civ_to_.php?page=1

Thanks for the link.

Pretty good read.

 

[SuperJay]

Thanks for the link.

Pretty good read.

No problem. I thought so too - it was nice to see a lengthier interview that actually asks some good questions and gets more out of Jon than the bland corporate nonsense that he spewed in that other interview that was posted earlier in the thread.

 

[Thormodr]

No problem. I thought so too - it was nice to see a lengthier interview that actually asks some good questions and gets more out of Jon than the bland corporate nonsense that he spewed in that other interview that was posted earlier in the thread.

It certainly casts him in a better light anyway.

He's happy to be at Stardock which really is a unique company.

Man! I just saw the announcement for Elemental's first expansion. It looks sweet!

 

[Senethro]

I dislike seeing people trying to derail positive threads. Hearing what you said about the Strategy and Tactics forums saddens me to be honest.

Quoting for irony, this being from the guy who barged into as many threads as possible trying to get everyone to pick up on his edgy renaming of the game to Shafer 5.

 

[Moss]

Moderator Action: Senthro and Thormodr - you both know better, please quit bickering at each other.

 

[Aristos]

...it's frustration in seeing this forum become such a vitriolic place where so little of the constructive posting that used to be its hallmark gets done any more.

The mediocrization of a game inevitably brings the mediocrization of its forums. (Jahns' Law).

You know, the whole massification of the market phenomenon...

 

[Aristos]

2kSuit: Dude, Jon, you will include 1UPT into Civ 5 at all costs.

Jon: 1UPT? What is that?

2kSuit: You know, dude, 1 unit only in each hexagonal tile. We decided that it would be very cool and applealing to the mass markets. You will adjust every other aspect of the design to this concept.

Jon: But... but...

2kSuit: Yes. Your butt depends on it.

Jon: What will I tell the fans that are awaiting a good and working solution to the Stacks?

2kSuit: Tell them that you played Panzer General when you were a kid, and you loved it so much, that you wanted to incorporate its combat system to Civ. That will do it.

Jon: Ooookayyyy...



Sure. That is what happened. Of course Jon is not the main responsible for the design decisions of Civ 5. We all know that.

 

[lschnarch]

Well yeah, obviously his responsibility is higher than the average coder's. Does that even need to be said? Where did I say "Jon has no responsibility?" Absolutely he bears a portion of that. My comments were in regards to the perception that simply by joining Stardock, Jon would somehow contaminate Elemental or other Stardock games and make them terrible simply by proximity. Given that his role on Elemental and his role in Civ 5 are completely different, I don't think that's something anyone should be too worried about.

Well, nobody knows exactly what was promised to him (think of the future project for him).
What concernes me is that he mentioned different times the "designing" input he may give. Actually, this makes me stay away from Elemental for the next time.
I have experienced his "designing input" in the last game, and I am not eager to experience that input ever again. It is just not my kind of games.

Others may have a different attitude and that's fine.

 

[Thormodr]

In the end, I think like many things in life the answer is a combination of things.

I think you can blame Firaxis, 2K Games and Jon Shafer for the debacle that is Civilization 5.

No one should get off the hook here.

However, I am a little more forgiving of Jon Shafer due to him being put in a no win situation. He clearly didn't have the experience or know how on how to design a game of this magnitude.

For that, I blame Firaxis and Sid. They are the ones that promoted him in the first place knowing full well that he probably wouldn't be able to cut the mustard. Taking a risk with a storied franchise like this was idiotic at best.

2K Games gets blame for penny pinching and forcing the game to be released at least a year too early. As bad as the game is, it likely would have been borderline acceptable with more time spent developing it.

Jon Shafer gets blame as well for making some flawed assumptions and bad decisions.

It was a tag team effort.

 

[Solo4114]

In the end, I think like many things in life the answer is a combination of things.

I think you can blame Firaxis, 2K Games and Jon Shafer for the debacle that is Civilization 5.

No one should get off the hook here.

However, I am a little more forgiving of Jon Shafer due to him being put in a no win situation. He clearly didn't have the experience or know how on how to design a game of this magnitude.

For that, I blame Firaxis and Sid. They are the ones that promoted him in the first place knowing full well that he probably wouldn't be able to cut the mustard. Taking a risk with a storied franchise like this was idiotic at best.

2K Games gets blame for penny pinching and forcing the game to be released at least a year too early. As bad as the game is, it likely would have been borderline acceptable with more time spent developing it.

Jon Shafer gets blame as well for making some flawed assumptions and bad decisions.

It was a tag team effort.

This.

 

[Stilgar08]

Well, nobody knows exactly what was promised to him (think of the future project for him).
What concernes me is that he mentioned different times the "designing" input he may give. Actually, this makes me stay away from Elemental for the next time.
I have experienced his "designing input" in the last game, and I am not eager to experience that input ever again. It is just not my kind of games.
Others may have a different attitude and that's fine.

Well, Shafer was a modder and a good one IMHO. He definitely knows how to alterate existing ideas - Coming up with exciting new things out of thin air is a completely different thing - and designing ciV was something out of thin air in that regard - meaning a complete overhaul and programming more or less "from scratch".

I'll go for Elemental when it reaches 1.2 (been there in the forums to look around and I'm looking forward to it and have a good feeling about it in general.)

But you're right, Ischnarch. To me it was good to stay away from ciV and not to buy it. I had a few hours at a friends PC who wasn't that fortunate... When Jon Shafer is lead-designer again I'll definitely will be "on guard" and won't pre-order by all means!
Like with ciV I'll check out the forums/fanbase and how they perceive that JS-game before putting my money on the counter.

Thanx for the gamasutra link! It was a very interesting read and between the lines you could see he went for another job-experience, not just an opportunity.
Obviously an experience he wasn't able to get at Firaxis/2k. I found it interesting how much he emphasized the meaning of "fun @ work" and having more freedom (as long as you have Brad Wardell on your side )...

 

[Thormodr]

Well, Shafer was a modder and a good one IMHO. He definitely knows how to alterate existing ideas - Coming up with exciting new things out of thin air is a completely different thing - and designing ciV was something out of thin air in that regard - meaning a complete overhaul and programming more or less "from scratch".

I'll go for Elemental when it reaches 1.2 (been there in the forums to look around and I'm looking forward to it and have a good feeling about it in general.)

But you're right, Ischnarch. To me it was good to stay away from ciV and not to buy it. I had a few hours at a friends PC who wasn't that fortunate... When Jon Shafer is lead-designer again I'll definitely will be "on guard" and won't pre-order by all means!
Like with ciV I'll check out the forums/fanbase and how they perceive that JS-game before putting my money on the counter.

Thanx for the gamasutra link! It was a very interesting read and between the lines you could see he went for another job-experience, not just an opportunity.
Obviously an experience he wasn't able to get at Firaxis/2k. I found it interesting how much he emphasized the meaning of "fun @ work" and having more freedom (as long as you have Brad Wardell on your side )...

Very astute post.

I think your assessment of Jon Shafer is very good. He is good at modifying things. He genuinely has a talent for it. He's definitely creative but I think he needs more experience in order to implement his ideas better.

Elemental is quite good now and will be even better with 1.2
The first expansion was announced today and it looks spectacular. (Not to mention free for people who bought Elemental before the New Year and heavily discounted for others who buy Elemental before the Expansion is released.)
I predict that Elemental will be a far superior game to Civilization 5 in one year's time. Hard to believe considering Elemental's disastrous launch.

As far as buying a Jon Shafer designed game, I'll adopt a wait and see attitude as well. I have a feeling it'll be much better the second time around though.

 

[Adam7Eight]

Elemental is quite good now and will be even better with 1.2
The first expansion was announced today and it looks spectacular. (Not to mention free for people who bought Elemental before the New Year and heavily discounted for others who buy Elemental before the Expansion is released.)
I predict that Elemental will be a far superior game to Civilization 5 in one year's time. Hard to believe considering Elemental's disastrous launch.

Totally agree. The summer can't come soon enough.

 

[Pedro P]

That is bad....

Now that Elemental was getting awesome D:

Elemental update 1.3: Now with 1UPT

 

[blind biker]

Well, Shafer was a modder and a good one IMHO.

Unfortunately, fact-based evidence shows that Shafer is a very poor modder. I don't understand where do people get this distorted view of Shafer being any good at modding. Any mods he has contributed, were abysmal and needed fixing by others. And even after fixing, they were not very popular. Espionage in BtS just for one example.

 

[Stilgar08]

Unfortunately, fact-based evidence shows that Shafer is a very poor modder. I don't understand where do people get this distorted view of Shafer being any good at modding. Any mods he has contributed, were abysmal and needed fixing by others. And even after fixing, they were not very popular. Espionage in BtS just for one example.

Sorry to hear that. Where did you get your insights? firaxian??

Seriously I wouldn't believe that. I mean c'mon; I find it strange how people expect JS to get into the role as lead designer (or scapegoat if you like...) of a highly respected , successful and loved franchise as Civ without any valuable skills... Or do you think he's the illegitimate son of Sid and that's why he was able to pull some strings??

I don't buy it - I think he's a talented designer with programming skills - And even if his programming skills are not high-end it's better than being a designer with no skills at all... I'm not into a position where I can estimate how skillful JS programming skills are - Are you?

If you are sceptical JS is a good lead-designer I'm absolutely on your side and he hasn't proven that scepticism wrong yet, as we all can see. But considering the Peter Principle he's good at what he's going to do @stardock in the first place even if he might not be good at being a lead designer for his own team in the future. For the latter we'll have to wait and see which is exactly what I'm planning to do.

Concerning Elemental: Kael is in the lead, not JS. Don't get so paranoic, folks!
I hope we agree that Kael already showed that HE is capable of being a lead designer (I think the task is even more dificult when you're leading volunteers rather then full-timers as happened in FFH I and II)...

 

[Stilgar08]

Oh, and before you get at me, biker: (I know you might want to )
Beforehand: I KNOW you don't have to look at the successes and record and take everything "as is", BUT he did far more on previous civ-iterations than "screw-up" espionage...

This is on his record:

From the BTS-"box":
Lead Designer "Alex Mantzaris, Jon Shafer"
Design Team "Alex Mantzaris, Jon Shafer, Liam Collins, Jesse Crafts-Finch, Timothy McCracken, Paul Murphy, Ed Piper"
Programming "Mike Breitkreutz, Jon Shafer"
Writer "Paul Murphy, Liam Collins, Jon Shafer"

from linkedIn: "Designed and programmed the prototype version of Civilization IV: Colonization (2008). Additionally, past roles at Firaxis have included design, programming and writing on Civilization IV: Beyond the Sword (2007), Civilization IV: Warlords (2006) and Civilization IV (2005)."

from weplayciv: "Final Frontier is, essentially, Civ in space. Developed by Jon Shafer from Firaxis, it feels considerably different from standard Civ4 as well... "

Not that bad IMO - and AFAIK co-lead designers and writers do stuff, too - not only program. Otherwise I'd like to have his job (would be more of a vacation...) !

 

[SuperJay]

Well, nobody knows exactly what was promised to him (think of the future project for him).

Very true. There's a LOT of things about this whole situation - the Civ 5 debacle, Jon's departure from Firaxis, his new role at Stardock - that nobody here knows. That doesn't stop us from speculating like crazy, though.

So you're right, everyone chooses to have their own perspective, since we possess very little hard factual information about any of this. It's come down to what every individual chooses to believe. If you guys want to believe that Jon is "cancer" for any software project and will automatically make everything at Stardock completely suck, that's your choice to believe that. I don't have a stake in it personally since I don't play Elemental (though I'll probably check out the demo), and I was just as unhappy about Civ 5 as anyone... I just don't choose to believe that one single hire at Stardock will automatically result in a "streamlined and organic" version of Elemental. But if that big fat "I WIN" button shows up in the next Elemental patch, I'll eat my helping of crow, no problem.