Jon Shafer joins Stardock to work on elemental

[Aristos]

What I don't get is how many of you assume that he is a good modder, programmer, etc. Do you know him? I don't. Do you? I mean, the only thing we have to judge his work is, well, the result of his work. And in the case of Civ5, it is NOT GOOD (I avoid using the word that comes to my mind only to avoid contaminating the post). Why would I assume that he is a good modder or anything if the result of his known work is mediocre? Why? As for BTS and previous iterations, blind biker is right... his contribution was infinitesimal, and even then, mediocre at the most (espionage is a good example, but his mod is also not the best out there).

Come on, I am also in the credits of the BUG mod, but my contribution was infinitesimal, and I'm not going around the world saying that I was a key contributor to one of the best mods for Civ4... nor do I expect anyone else to say that.

The truth is, a person like him is only known for his work. And his work is clearly not the best so far.

What is so hard to accept from those facts?

 

[Thormodr]

What I don't get is how many of you assume that he is a good modder, programmer, etc. Do you know him? I don't. Do you? I mean, the only thing we have to judge his work is, well, the result of his work. And in the case of Civ5, it is NOT GOOD (I avoid using the word that comes to my mind only to avoid contaminating the post). Why would I assume that he is a good modder or anything if the result of his known work is mediocre? Why? As for BTS and previous iterations, blind biker is right... his contribution was infinitesimal, and even then, mediocre at the most (espionage is a good example, but his mod is also not the best out there).

Come on, I am also in the credits of the BUG mod, but my contribution was infinitesimal, and I'm not going around the world saying that I was a key contributor to one of the best mods for Civ4... nor do I expect anyone else to say that.

The truth is, a person like him is only known for his work. And his work is clearly not the best so far.

What is so hard to accept from those facts?

Being a modder and being a lead game designer are two totally different things.

One can look at ciV and say that yes, Jon Shafer is not the world's best game designer as it was pretty crappy. I am in total agreement there. Even with Firaxis and 2K Games being brutal, he still did a sub standard job.

His modding work is pretty good though. For example, Final Frontier was awesome. In my opinion, he simply ran out of time as the concept was quite ambitious and he was probably promoted to lead designer of ciV around that time.

I think you need to distinguish these two concepts.

Just my opinion though.

 

[bryanw1995]

@ricardojohns: final frontier has gotten very favorable reviews. jon also worked on c3c, c4, and was co-lead for bts. even for people who don't like civ5 I'm surprised that you didn't enjoy any of those other games. And saying "he only worked on X for this or that project and that was the ONE THING that sucked" is disingenuous unless you can provide proof that you actually didn't like that other project/expansion/component/etc before you started hating civ5. Was jon a great lead for civ5? probably not, but it's ridiculous to claim that because of this all of his other accomplishments have been somehow diminished.

 

[Aristos]

@ricardojohns: final frontier has gotten very favorable reviews. jon also worked on c3c, c4, and was co-lead for bts. even for people who don't like civ5 I'm surprised that you didn't enjoy any of those other games. And saying "he only worked on X for this or that project and that was the ONE THING that sucked" is disingenuous unless you can provide proof that you actually didn't like that other project/expansion/component/etc before you started hating civ5. Was jon a great lead for civ5? probably not, but it's ridiculous to claim that because of this all of his other accomplishments have been somehow diminished.

I understand your point, but it is also ridiculous to claim that ALL his work is top of the line only because you like Civ5. As fot the other expansions, I made already clear that BTS is the best civ of them all. But I don't think that is thanks to Shafer, even if he is credited as "co-lead"... it's more thanks to the superb platform that civ4 is, even with its original problems, and Civ5 is not.

In other words, I cannot understand the infatuation that some here show regarding Shafer, to me he is just one more. I find Brian Reynolds and Soren top of the line, and exactly based on the same measure: their final result.

Shafer is just another guy; a chanta, as we call them in SA. NOthing more, nothing less. Certainly not deserving of so much coverage and support.

That's all. And yes, to me, he is the MAIN responsible for what Civ5 is.

 

[Celevin]

I understand your point, but it is also ridiculous to claim that ALL his work is top of the line only because you like Civ5. As fot the other expansions, I made already clear that BTS is the best civ of them all. But I don't think that is thanks to Shafer, even if he is credited as "co-lead"... it's more thanks to the superb platform that civ4 is, even with its original problems, and Civ5 is not.

I don't want to argue about this for too long, but how can you not give Shafer a lot of credit towards BtS, yet give him a lot off credit for Civ5? I feel like you're nitpicking which things to credit towards him as much as the next person.

 

[Fistalis]

I don't want to argue about this for too long, but how can you not give Shafer a lot of credit towards BtS, yet give him a lot off credit for Civ5? I feel like you're nitpicking which things to credit towards him as much as the next person.

Because his co lead designer on BTS was also THE lead programmer. As stated by Alexman (the other co lead designer)at the time mr. shafer wasn't a programmer and his main duties in the design process were the espionage system and the final frontier mod.

Also to note as an expansion it was simply building on top of a previously built system.

Where as in civ V it was built from scratch. There was only one lead designer.. and he also happened to program much of the AI.

From what we know he deserves much more credit for civ V than he does for BTS. Good or Bad.
Thats not to say his contribution to BTS wasn't more than what we know of.. simply that from the knowledge we possess (and due to only having one lead designer) his input was far greater in civ V.

 

[bryanw1995]

he must have done a bit more than just espionage and final frontier, that wouldn't have been enough to get co-lead credit. and as much as I respect alexman and his work, he also split town to go work in a role that has nothing to do with computer gaming. also, one of the reasons that jon got the lead role in civ5 was his programming expertise, so it seems highly likely that he was somewhat involved in that role for bts as well. also remember that he worked on all previous civ games/expansions since c3c as well, so again it's hard to say that everything that he's done has been terrible.

@ricardojohns: Certainly his most recent work with the civ franchise hasn't been as highly regarded by the civ community as the previous games, and you're right to say that not all of his work is good or bad just based upon what he's done with civ5. Most likely his stature has diminished somewhat because of the negative civ5 reception, which is why he's having to work on elemental for a while before brad will let him work on his own pet project. iirc brian and soren jumped straight into other lead-design roles with other companies.


speaking of ciV overall, I don't remember where i had the discussion but I just checked amazon and the ranking has gone up again in the past couple of weeks. now it's around 2.3 star while a few weeks ago it was exactly 2. still not awesome, but it's creeping closer and closer towards the 3 star rating that cIV vanilla had.

 

[Fistalis]

he must have done a bit more than just espionage and final frontier, that wouldn't have been enough to get co-lead credit. and as much as I respect alexman and his work, he also split town to go work in a role that has nothing to do with computer gaming. also, one of the reasons that jon got the lead role in civ5 was his programming expertise, so it seems highly likely that he was somewhat involved in that role for bts as well. also remember that he worked on all previous civ games/expansions since c3c as well, so again it's hard to say that everything that he's done has been terrible.

.

So your response is alexman is a liar lol
Never stated he ONLY worked on espionage and and final frontier. Only that those were his main duties.
Secondly I didn't say he had NO programming knowledge simply that he wasn't considered a programmer for that project, as such the programming he did do had to be cleaned up for implementation. Further more.. giving him co-lead designer credits is exactly the kind of credibility he would need to go on to say.. lead designer of the next release.

 

[blind biker]

he must have done a bit more than just espionage and final frontier, that wouldn't have been enough to get co-lead credit.

It is, if you're a good enough chanta.

 

[Me,myself,and,I]

It is, if you're a good enough chanta.

Will you give up on the Chanta thing? You have never met him and you have ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/6252/shafers_next_step_from_civ_to_.php This has been posted before by superjay. You should give it a read if you haven't already.

 

[Solo4114]

What the hell is a "chanta"? Is it something like a kiss-ass?

 

[bryanw1995]

So your response is alexman is a liar lol
Never stated he ONLY worked on espionage and and final frontier. Only that those were his main duties.
Secondly I didn't say he had NO programming knowledge simply that he wasn't considered a programmer for that project, as such the programming he did do had to be cleaned up for implementation. Further more.. giving him co-lead designer credits is exactly the kind of credibility he would need to go on to say.. lead designer of the next release.

not sure how you got that out of what I said. This conversation only very peripherally even involves alexman. Are you saying that alexman has publicly stated that "all jon shafer did on cIV was espionage and final frontier and absolutely nothing else"? If so then I'll certainly retract my statement.

 

[Fistalis]

not sure how you got that out of what I said. This conversation only very peripherally even involves alexman. Are you saying that alexman has publicly stated that "all jon shafer did on cIV was espionage and final frontier and absolutely nothing else"? If so then I'll certainly retract my statement.

I never stated he only worked on those.. simply that those were his main design duties... as such his main contribution as co-lead designer. Rechecking alexmans post on the subject i realize i forgot to mention the advanced start option. That was his other major contribution to BTS design.

To clarify.. ill quote alexmans post.

Jon did a very good job on BTS. Besides the Final Frontier mod, Jon was mainly responsible for the initial design of the espionage feature in BTS, as well as the initial implementation of Advanced Start. Of course at that time he was not a programmer, so his features needed to be polished for release.

Now compare that to my original statement which you argued against...

Because his co lead designer on BTS was also THE lead programmer. As stated by Alexman (the other co lead designer)at the time mr. shafer wasn't a programmer and his main duties in the design process were the espionage system and the final frontier mod.

So yes i forgot to mention the advanced start option(but never stated that those 2 things were his ONLY contribution). My comment was totally based on alexmans comment. So refuting my comment one must refute alexmans. Calling him a liar.

 

[Aristos]

Will you give up on the Chanta thing? You have never met him and you have ABSOLUTELY NO EVIDENCE.

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/6252/shafers_next_step_from_civ_to_.php This has been posted before by superjay. You should give it a read if you haven't already.

You don't need to meet a chanta to know a chanta.

 

[Thormodr]

Chanta = fraud I believe.

So Jon Shafer is a fraud? What did he promise to do that he didn't follow through on?

If anything, 2K Games, Firaxis and their propaganda machine are frauds.

For example: "This game is a big sloppy kiss to our fans."

They flat out lied to the long time fans of the game.

 

[joyous_gard]

Chanta = Shmoozer?

They use the right buzzwords and do little things that present the appearance of capability but when it comes to game time they have "outside forces" holding them back from their "true potential."

Edit: I know because I am a bit of a shmoozer myself and the Man is always keeping me down!! Shmooze is a personality trait, like slut, nerd, wimp. People don't set out to be these things, they just are them. Sure you can try not to be something and work on yourself as an individual (that is what getting old is for) but it's best if people just are who they are and learn from their mistakes.

 

[Acronym2]

Chanta = fraud I believe.

So Jon Shafer is a fraud? What did he promise to do that he didn't follow through on?

If anything, 2K Games, Firaxis and their propaganda machine are frauds.

For example: "This game is a big sloppy kiss to our fans."

They flat out lied to the long time fans of the game.

You know, putting the Jon Shafer debate aside, I couldn't agree with you more on that. The press releases along with the interviews really did seem a bit too "sugar coated" to be true and I really think they played the CivIV fanbase to get them to pre-order the Civ5 digital download. Perhaps the statement would be more accurate if it read: "This game is a big sloppy kiss from our fans to us."

 

[Thormodr]

You know, putting the Jon Shafer debate aside, I couldn't agree with you more on that. The press releases along with the interviews really did seem a bit too "sugar coated" to be true and I really think they played the CivIV fanbase to get them to pre-order the Civ5 digital download. Perhaps the statement would be more accurate if it read: "This game is a big sloppy kiss from our fans to us."

It was a con job worthy of criminal organization.

They played Civ fans like a 2 dollar fiddle.

 

[lschnarch]

His modding work is pretty good though. For example, Final Frontier was awesome. In my opinion, he simply ran out of time as the concept was quite ambitious and he was probably promoted to lead designer of ciV around that time.

First, I gave Final Frontier a try when Civ4 was released. Took around 10 minutes and I thought "WTH?". It just wasn't my cup of coffee.
But that is ok, since that is, what mods/scenarios are for.

Second, and more important, look at the bolded part. Don't you see a pattern?

I don't know how many people liked Final Frontier or not. For sure, I didn't like it.
What I know due to the discussions of the last months is that espionage was one of the least welcomed features of Civ4.
What I know is that Civ5 has split the fanbase like no other Civilization game before.

So, I have three examples of Mr. Shafer's work at hand and all three are not satisfying for me.
Which means, Mr. Shafer is not designing games I would like.

I just don't want to experience new examples of his "designing input" (or worse: responsibility). A Shafer-game will be a strict "no-buy" for me.

Others may think differently and that's fine. For me, this guy has proven often enough not to be the designer whom (? who??? ) I would like.

 

[Thormodr]

First, I gave Final Frontier a try when Civ4 was released. Took around 10 minutes and I thought "WTH?". It just wasn't my cup of coffee.
But that is ok, since that is, what mods/scenarios are for.

Second, and more important, look at the bolded part. Don't you see a pattern?

I don't know how many people liked Final Frontier or not. For sure, I didn't like it.
What I know due to the discussions of the last months is that espionage was one of the least welcomed features of Civ4.
What I know is that Civ5 has split the fanbase like no other Civilization game before.

So, I have three examples of Mr. Shafer's work at hand and all three are not satisfying for me.
Which means, Mr. Shafer is not designing games I would like.

I just don't want to experience new examples of his "designing input" (or worse: responsibility). A Shafer-game will be a strict "no-buy" for me.

Others may think differently and that's fine. For me, this guy has proven often enough not to be the designer whom (? who??? ) I would like.

Fair enough. I agree with you that Jon Shafer hasn't proven himself to be a great designer yet. Too young and inexperienced in my opinion. He made a lot of rookie designer mistakes. One of them was being too ambitious. (Another one was not anticipating 2K Games would move up the timetable for release so drastically. Curse him for not being a fortune teller. )

However, I do think he has genuine talent. He just needs direction and guidance.
He certainly didn't get that at Firaxis in my opinion. Firaxis is a terribly run company that doesn't have a clue what they are doing.

As I mentioned before, I will be leery of the Jon Shafer co designed game for Stardock. I will do my homework and make sure there is a demo and read a lot of feedback before I spend money on it.
However, I think it'll end up being a quality game. Stardock actually gives a damn.

Anyway, I completely understand where you are coming from. We all feel burnt by the fiasco that happened.