Judge Advocate - Proposed Solution

[Bill_in_PDX]

I am going to vent here a little bit, but ask that all involved with donsig PI please consider my point.

I would like Shaitan, eyrei, and donsig to solve their problem outside of the PI arena. Clearly this is too convoluted a situation for the PI arena given we are not even sure where the boundaries are in mod'ing and citizening, as noted in my review of the Presidential succession.

donsig: You continued to agitate the thread when clearly you knew that it was against a mod's rule. We all accept the rule of Mods to participate in civfanatics. I have to believe that were DoM the one to have censured your post there, you may well have taken a different tact after making your initial point.

Shaitan: You chose to take this forward as PI when it was an issue created by moderator action. All of this further clouded by the absence of a Chief Justice. I understand your reasons for having moved the way you did, but I think we are not in a position yet to properly proceed on that type of an issue until the entire CJ, mod, citizen issue is clarified for all. I ask you and eyrei to finish the process and solve it as a moderator action.

AlmightyJosh's complaint not withstanding, I can see how the free speech clause could be applied here. Our previous ruling dealt with turn chat threads that were much more defined in our laws. I implore you for a moment to step back and look at that again, it is far less cut and dried a point in my eyes.

eyrei: You are a mod now, please do not make arbitrary rulings on things such as holding off on Shaitans replacement, or the Presidential line of succession without posting as clearly either a mod or citizen. This places myself, or anyone in the Judiciary in a nearly impossible position.

To all three of you All three of you are the three highest respect people in my eyes in this game. I know of all the contributions you make.

It is not my desire to take a "holier than thou" attitude in this post toward you, as I haven't come close to contributing what you have, but I ask all of you now to work this out amongst yourselves for the good of the game.

If you all cannot do that, or would still prefer that I continue forward with a PI, then I will do so as is my responsibility, but I will also do so know that the nature of this will cause harm to our democracy.

Thank you for your attention to this issue.

Bill

 

[Almightyjosh]

I'll give you notwithstanding!!
The only reason I, or possible another citizen, did not bring action is because it had already been done. I think the problem is not that Shaitan does not know when he is acting as a citizen or a mod, I thing Donsig does not. You note well that, had it been DOM that had taken the action, it is very unlikely that Donsig would have continued to agitate.

Donsig should be PLEASED we are treating this as a Demogame issue and not a mod issue. I can imagine that the penalties for flagrantly ignoring a moderator are much harsher that most we could dish out through a PI, plus he would not get a trial.

We are doing Donsig a favour by keeping this our buisness, but if he likes we can treat it like we would in any other forum and see how please TF (or whoever decides this stuff) is about his actions.

 

[donsig]

Originally posted by Almightyjosh
Donsig should be PLEASED we are treating this as a Demogame issue and not a mod issue. I can imagine that the penalties for flagrantly ignoring a moderator are much harsher that most we could dish out through a PI, plus he would not get a trial.

We are doing Donsig a favour by keeping this our buisness, but if he likes we can treat it like we would in any other forum and see how please TF (or whoever decides this stuff) is about his actions.

Feel free to take it to Thunderfall.

 

[Shaitan]

That is a very impassioned and well crafted speach, Bill, but I do insist on this being taken to conclusion as a PI. There are several reasons, besides those I originally stated.

First: If this was handled by us mods as a Forum infraction the most likely outcome would be donsig getting a "vacation". This is a fairly critical time in our game and there are a large number of decisions on the table right now that will affect the entire Demo Game 2. I do not want those decisions made without donsig's input.

Second: donsig needs to know that his actions are not accepted or supported by the community at large. A moderator action will not show this; a PI will.

Third: I'm going to open the "T" Boutique in Demo Game 2 and I need ideas for the T-shirts. All the good ones so far came from PI#6.

 

[disorganizer]

i second shaitan here, as pi's normally show sometimes surprising results but will show the suspects as well as the people bringing it up the clear opinion of the populace.

 

[eyrei]

Ok, Bill. I see your point.

However, I do not see either my request to Chieftess (remember it was a request) to hold off on appointing a new Chief Justice, or my post saying that donsig should not appoint the new Chief Justice because he was currently on trial were arbitrary rulings. Additionally, those posts would have been made regardless of whether or not I was a moderator, so I think that is irrelevant.

This situation should be resolved within the procedures of a PI, though I would be satisfied with a warning to donsig regarding ignoring a moderator's instructions. I do not think, however, that this would satisfy anyone involved. Speaking of which, I am not really involved in this dispute except for the attempts I have made to settle it.

Finally, did noone read my post saying that if I posted in plain black text I was posting as a citizen and not as a moderator? I gave anyone who was concerned about trying to distinguish between the two 'personalities' an easy way to do so.

 

[disorganizer]

now... if this isnt roleplay... be mod in the first part of the thread and nonmod in the other!
so much to holding roleplay out of the game ;-P
*kidding*

 

[Bill_in_PDX]

Shaitan, given yours and AlmightyJosh's insistence, I see no way outside of Mod intervention to end this PI. Therefore it will proceed.

AlmightyJosh, take a look at the defense donsig will mount. Frankly it is the same tack I would take, we have not set precedent in the voting threats against debate, in fact, it is quite the opposite. In my opinion this will be a tough conviction to obtain.

Eyrei, I do understand the red versus black text issue, but your words to Chieftess were: "I want you to....", not I recommend that you...or...please consider.... In other words, I read it as dictating to the President what to do, and only someone with a Moderator title or disorganizer can do that.

As noted then, unless Moderators step in, the PI will go forward.

Bill
Judge Advocate

 

[Bill_in_PDX]

Originally posted by Shaitan
Third: I'm going to open the "T" Boutique in Demo Game 2 and I need ideas for the T-shirts. All the good ones so far came from PI#6.

Now this is a welcome break to chuckle.

 

[eyrei]

Originally posted by Bill_in_PDX

Eyrei, I do understand the red versus black text issue, but your words to Chieftess were: "I want you to....", not I recommend that you...or...please consider.... In other words, I read it as dictating to the President what to do, and only someone with a Moderator title or disorganizer can do that.

It was actually "I would like you to..."

To me that is the same as asking a favor, but I can see why it might have seemed more forceful. It is, however, consistent with my posting style. A moderator cannot force anyone to do anything except obey forum rules. Please keep that in mind. We are not more powerful than the president, or any other citizen for that matter, when it comes to the game itself.

As far as moderator action to end the PI, I don't think it is going to happen. It could be ended if Shaitan withdraws the charges. There is precedence for this from PI #7 where I withdrew the charges against Rain as soon as she complied, effectively ending the PI.

 

[Bill_in_PDX]

Yes, you did say it that way. Sorry, I quoted it correctly in the Judicial threat, but not here.

Still, "I would like you to hold off for a few days before you accept Shaitan's resignation.", from someone with a title line of Moderator can be taken wrong, and that was my point.

I think matters like that will be more clear down the road as the red versus black becomes the norm