Jungle start without river and hills

[Pye]

Hello,
Can someone give an advice how to play it ?

I had such start in MP several times and I can't see any strategy how to play it.

It takes too much time to move initial settler out of jungle( 6+ turns usually).
If settled in place capital has extremely low production(0 mine luxuries, 0 pastures, 1-2 hills in second or third ring or no hills at all, the only improvements are plantations and farms).Capital can be on a coast, but without water resources or god of the sea is already taken by another player.

Additional cities are partially in jungles too and tiles improvements take ages.

Any competent neighbor is capturing me with 4-5 composite bowmen and 2 melee units.
I can give a fight, but with low production capital I gonna lose in the time of crossbows anyway.

Now I'm just quitting after initial scouting with warrior and scout, because I feel can't do anything with such position.

Any pro tips ?

 

[RStark]

In you case I would suggest to grow up the cap up to 4 citizens, and then ASAP produce two settlers. These settlers should move to good production sites with hills and pastures. When you reach Education the cap in the jungle becomes a scientific centre of your empire.

 

[Pye]

In you case I would suggest to grow up the cap up to 4 citizens, and then ASAP produce two settlers. These settlers should move to good production sites with hills and pastures. When you reach Education the cap in the jungle becomes a scientific centre of your empire.

It doesn't work usually. There is only time to settle 1 production city with settler from liberty. Your neighbors will have second settler earlier. And science bonus from jungles comes too late. You gonna have overwhelming army of crossbowmen at the gate when it hits.

It works only if your neighbors make random moves.

 

[tommynt]

Dont act like there are neverending jungles without resources on normal maps.

There is like allways a end to jungle in either direction after about 2 tiles.

Just get the +1 culture per jungle tile pantheon, go tradition tree, play ooc for some time - let your cap grow and expand its boarder to useful tiles.
A cap sorounded by jungle got perfect defense position, so you should be very save.

Once cap is like size 8 or 9 even with not so huge production u can build settler in 3-4 turns and expand a bit.

 

[Pye]

Dont act like there are neverending jungles without resources on normal maps.

There is like allways a end to jungle in either direction after about 2 tiles.

Just get the +1 culture per jungle tile pantheon, go tradition tree, play ooc for some time - let your cap grow and expand its boarder to useful tiles.
A cap sorounded by jungle got perfect defense position, so you should be very save.

Once cap is like size 8 or 9 even with not so huge production u can build settler in 3-4 turns and expand a bit.

It actually possible with coast/jungle start. I had it 3 times with 1 hill in the range of capital. Yes, there was not only jungle, but grassland, marsh, lake, lone mountain, couple of plains or forests.

And if your neighbors play something like double scout/liberty it's really hard to get 3rd decent city.

I can handle any other position, but this particular combination looks completely unplayable for me.

Sands usually come with river and you can get desert folklore and then go for Petra.
Tundra usually has bunch of camp tiles, which are really good with godess of the hunt.

Plantations cut off your miserable production.
Culture from jungle feels completely useless, because it can't buff your production/money/food significantly.

 

[tommynt]

well good players use what they got and make best out of it

 

[Pye]

well good players use what they got and make best out of it

It does not feel really well.

I had a game today, where a guy had such start. He was cornered to his lone capital by maya and dutch. He took tradition and culture form jungle.
At the moment I hit machinery I had 62 hammers from 3 cities and average was about 35, but he has only 9 from his capital.

His only hope since turn 1 was to wait until others nuke each other to stone age in the capital, which can not be destroyed by nukes.

 

[Bandersnatching]

Disclaimer: I've only played a few multiplayer games, and not with very skillful people.

If you really experience large jungles with no production often, that sucks and is quite strange. Is this related to the civ you play (Siam, Aztec, etc), or are you just getting screwed over by the random number god? I played as Aztecs once in a multiplayer game where there were two hills in the second ring, as well as a grassland marble, and a river, but the jungles did terrible things to my production. It looked like a terrible start, but I eventually won with it because I was able to play in a manner that the other players weren't expecting (I ended up somehow getting the Great Library and then dominating three other players with fast Jaguar Swordsmen (this was Vanilla), and I was in a pretty good strategic location that prevented aggression by other players, so take what you will out of my 'example').
First off: yes, you will probably lose in that position.
Secondly, you can still make of it what you like, if you are able to read the terrain and opponents well enough. I would advise Liberty for the extra city production and free worker/settler, go for Bronzeworking so you can start taking out the jungles, and try to keep a low profile until you are ready to defend yourself well. You probably won't win but you should be able to maintain a secondary-level influence in the game, and prevent yourself from losing too horribly.
There are two early benefits from jungles: it is harder to attack you, and you are basically guaranteed to be able to grow your capital. Further, lots of jungle and no hills should give you some type of resource - bananas or plantation luxuries come to mind - and usually those things are on top of plains, which would increase production slightly and give you some extra gold. It just takes longer than other starts, and I guess that can totally kill you on multiplayer.

Oh, wait, you were asking for pro tips.

I guess the best I can say is, make capturing your capital so hard that it destroys your enemy's chances of winning. Jungles are well suited for bloodbaths.

 

[EEE_BOY]

+1culture for jungle
go liberty for free settler and play 2 cities until NC and CBs
faster liberty finisher can help you with a key medieval wonder or religion.
Capital can settle on low ground. avoid high ground in the second ring or defend that high ground no matter what.

 

[ense7en]

Jungle starts are horrible in MP.

I often try to move, but it's true, there are only so many turns you can spend wandering around trying to see somewhere less crap to settle before you've lost the game that way.

If you have less skilled opponents it's not so bad, but with good players, you're going to be in tough as the science from Uni +TP comes far too late to help in most games.

 

[tommynt]

It does not feel really well.

I had a game today, where a guy had such start. He was cornered to his lone capital by maya and dutch. He took tradition and culture form jungle.
At the moment I hit machinery I had 62 hammers from 3 cities and average was about 35, but he has only 9 from his capital.

His only hope since turn 1 was to wait until others nuke each other to stone age in the capital, which can not be destroyed by nukes.

Donnu last time I had such a start I kinda dominated the game - opponents were low-medium skilled I d say (NQ people), but then my capital found some usuful tiles in 3rd ring - that why I say I cant believe that there is really ONLY jungle all around - that just seems made up - and if there is really ONLY jungle u have to move cap 3 turns - so what?

Just wana say that some jungle tiles dont hurt at all - there is usually banana and spice or so making decent tiles with jungle pantheon - and on top of that its great defense position AND great after education.

No reason to quit at all ...

 

[Crustacian]

well good players use what they got and make best out of it

That is one way to look at it Tommynt. Making the best out of what you got is a challenge that is fun.

But the best players, in addition to this, also consider ALL their options, just one of which is moving their settler a "reasonable" distance in hopes of greater variety of squares.

Making due when in the occasional endless jungle, tundra, whatever is a great challenge, and all choices are really a gamble all things considered.

Another great option is to play larger maps and with longer turns per era. This makes more options more attractive in the situation you first mentioned, Pye.

If that is too slow a game pace, then an equalized map (absolutely equal) gets down to the real strategy vs. strategy effect.

 

[Silverfuturist]

Hello,
Can someone give an advice how to play it ?

I had such start in MP several times and I can't see any strategy how to play it.

It takes too much time to move initial settler out of jungle( 6+ turns usually).
If settled in place capital has extremely low production(0 mine luxuries, 0 pastures, 1-2 hills in second or third ring or no hills at all, the only improvements are plantations and farms).Capital can be on a coast, but without water resources or god of the sea is already taken by another player.

Additional cities are partially in jungles too and tiles improvements take ages.

Any competent neighbor is capturing me with 4-5 composite bowmen and 2 melee units.
I can give a fight, but with low production capital I gonna lose in the time of crossbows anyway.

Now I'm just quitting after initial scouting with warrior and scout, because I feel can't do anything with such position.

Any pro tips ?

A low prod capital is a big challenge when you are playing vs people your own skill, and if you are next to a player who is more skilled than you maybe the game is just over. Liberty will give u prod bonus and free settler, and if you survive until liberty is finished maybe get an engineer and settle it. Maybe rush shrine to get +1 hammer for city. If you can bully CS for gold, build archers and upgrade at construction. But yea, production is so important in MP that sometimes you hit the jackpot with a strong capital and sometimes you start the game with a handicap.

 

[Pye]

That is one way to look at it Tommynt. Making the best out of what you got is a challenge that is fun.

But the best players, in addition to this, also consider ALL their options, just one of which is moving their settler a "reasonable" distance in hopes of greater variety of squares.

Making due when in the occasional endless jungle, tundra, whatever is a great challenge, and all choices are really a gamble all things considered.

Another great option is to play larger maps and with longer turns per era. This makes more options more attractive in the situation you first mentioned, Pye.

If that is too slow a game pace, then an equalized map (absolutely equal) gets down to the real strategy vs. strategy effect.

I've played some more games since initial post, where I was on either side(norma/jungle start). It feels pretty unfair for a man in a jungle.

Imho, the best option is to set resources to strategic balance/abundant/legendary start in every game and avoid standart resource setting.

 

[Crustacian]

It is a tough row to hoe no doubt. Your pick of solutions may be best for you right now. If you try it on a long pace like epoch or marathon, please post your experience!

 

[tommynt]

I havent had a starting spot yet, which gave me the feeling I could not win with.

And I m pretty sure that I started more games as 99% of other guys.

It all comes down to skill in the end