Khazad Early Expansion Strategy

[nealhunt]

I've seen several posts to the effect that the Khazad do best when turtling up. Certainly, it seems the AI is set up to favor that approach. I was not convinced that was the best way to play them, so I set about to prove it wrong. I've run multiple Khazad startups in order to test an early expansion strategy. So far, I've been able to expand almost as fast as any other civ, fill the vaults, and keep tech competitive.

The basic concept is to start with a specialist economy, using markets and merchants to fuel the expansion and fill the vaults. I'll outline the ideal setup, but there is enough slack in the plan to divert for a couple techs and/or additional defensive builds if needed.

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Settings: monarch, standard, fractal, normal speed

Techs: Agriculture, Festivals, Mining, Education, Writing, Exploration, Bronze, Earthmother, [I've blanked on whether you need Philosphy to get Earthmother but if not, Philo is next], remaining worker techs. Head to warfare tech if you want that, or to Orders from Heaven if you want a second religion.

Capital Build: warrior, warrior, warrior, worker (at size 3-4), settler, market, warrior, settler, warrior, worker, warrior, temple, settler, worker

1st city build (GP farm or Tech city): market, warrior, temple, warrior, temple

2nd city build (production or tech): market, warrior, temple, warrior


Actions:
Send the warriors to scout. First warrior build guards the city. Send the second to a good fogbuster location, ideally your intended first city site. You should have popped enough huts to keep your happiness from being a major problem and to fuel expansion until you get the merchants going.

The third warrior is either a fogbuster or a replacement due to a bear/spider/whatever loss.

Send the worker to build farms. You don't have any other worker techs, so you have plenty of time. Chances are you will have enough forests that squares to improve will be few until Bronze Working. Build farms everywhere available. You can always go back and cottage over them later. Once you have at least 2 excess food to support a merchant specialist, you can move towards the intended area for the first additional city. If you're lucky, your capital borders may have even expanded to cover some of the new city site's land and you can pre-farm for the new city. If you haven't had to divert for game requirements you might even have Mining and be able to mine non-forested hills.

Settle the new city with the pre-positioned warrior to protect it. Farm with the worker to the point of 2 extra food.

Your treasury will be losing a couple gold per turn. You should have enough to hold on until the Market is completed in the capital. Immediately assign a merchant specialist. Your treasury will be about +4 gold. Assign a specialist as soon as the Market is done in the first city. You should be at +10 gold right up until you found the second city.

Start cottage spamming as soon as Education comes on line. Cover any unneeded farms. Chances are good you will hit Education early. Build your academy or settle in the capital, according to your tech strategy preferences.

Repeat earlier pattern with the second city.

You should pop a Great merchant about the same time as the second city founds. Settle it immediately. If your second city is a GP farm, put it there because the extra food will help with specialists. If not, settle it in the capital. You should still be at 100% research and pulling in +12-15 gpt and have a nice fat treasury by this point.

Bronze is next, so you can start building in wooded terrain.

As soon as you can, start building temples. Switch the merchants to priests. They make almost as much gold, the hammer is quite useful, and you need at least one Prophet to build a shrine. Your GP farm should soon be able to support 3 specialist - 2 priests and a merchant (pagan temple, Kilmorph temple, market) - for a nice, fat GPP rate.

Continue to expand.

I find that I end up in first or second place in points, get Writing first for the Great Sage, found at least the Runes of Kilmorph, sometimes found another religion, with 4-6 cities, 90-100% research, and plenty of gold in the vault (usually 150-250 per city, depending on how fast I was able to expand).

From that position you can either go for a metal/warfare route immediately, head for religious techs/disciple force since you're right by Priesthood (Stonewardens with Spiritual Hammer healing catapults), or go for economic techs and more expansion (possibly with a later Boarrider force if you have pigs).

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As noted, there is some slack in the strategy. The above assumes that you have a decent land mass that allows for some good defensive positions and/or choke points where a Warrior or two can expect to hold off a fair number of barbs. You can build more warriors if you are stuck in a spot with wide open terrain or if a lair gets established too close to your borders before you can clear it.

Likewise, there is some slack in the tech paths. Early on the tech order isn't all that important because you'll research several before a worker is out. With those settings you should still hit most of your "here first" tech goals even with modest diversions. You can head for Animal Husbandry or Calendar or something if you have a resource that could benefit you strongly.

As an example, in my last test run I started on the coast with good seafood so I started for Fishing and worked in some boat production with the warriors. I also picked up Animal Husbandry and Calendar (and I think I picked up Horseback Riding - I wanted to get Trade quickly and I had pigs so wanted to work towards Boar Riders) before heading for Orders from Heaven and only missed founding the Order by a couple of turns. When I shut down I was in second place in points (700 to 800, everyone else down in the 500s), had 5 cities with axemen guarding each, a settler en route to a new site, a small military force (but decent for that stage of the game), about 1200 gold, 100% research rate and positive cash flow.


Of course, if you end up pounded by Barbs, or you end up in terrain where you absolutely must have a different tech path (I had one game with literally no unwooded squares in the fat cross except a wheat resource), the turtle up option is still available. Just keep in mind that expansion and Khazad are not antithetical.

I hope that helps.

 

[mcguigan97]

Thank you for this excellent post! I particularly appreciate that you listed techs, builds, etc. rather than just being general.

One question: analysis I've read indicates that the first build should be worker rather than warriors. Within a relatively short time you catch up to the turns you've lost and then are in a better positions. Did you try worker first and if so, what was your experience?

Also, where is mysticism? A lot of people pop that early to get god-king and elder councils. What's your view on that?

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I was under the impression that, especially in FfH, building workers first isn't often a good idea (unless you are playing as the Luchuirp), since you may need to defend yourself from stronger barbarians and because you loose out on the early city growth, leaving your city's production and food collection capacities far below that of your rivals.

I was never all that good at the early game, and now I usually take advantage of advanced starts, so I don't really know from experience what the best build order is.

 

[mcguigan97]

I was under the impression that, especially in FfH, building workers first isn't often a good idea (unless you are playing as the Luchuirp), since you may need to defend yourself from stronger barbarians and because you loose out on the early city growth, leaving your city's production and food collection capacities far below that of your rivals.

The trade off between growing then worker or worker then growing has been analyzed for Civ4 and worker first wins. I'm not sure if that translates to FfH.

I find that a worker first is fine for safety (I don't play raging barbs). I usually go:

worker
warrior, warrior, warrior, setttler
warrior, settler
(buildings)

But I can't say that this is *best* as I haven't really done comparisions.

 

[Caradoc]

You can tell from the starting position whether to build the worker or warrior. If you can hit pop=2 on completion of a warrior or soon after, it is better to go that way. Also check your tech timetable. There's no point in having worker until you have a tech that lets you put it to use.

With all the damned Skeletons (and worse) running around these days, you are going to need lots of warriors if you play raging barbs.

 

[Demus]

add to that the fact that most of the time, you haven't even got the techs to improve your land properly (exp. when starting with charms).
Worker first was a winner in the normal civ 4 games, since most of the time you could start chopping a lot earlier to get an earlier settler out (i'm still a fan of the worker-worker-settler start for civs that start with mining, beelining bronze). Since chopping is a lot further down the tech tree in FFH2, this is hardly an option

 

[jan030]

Is this a BtS game or a normal one? Because in the normal game the Kazad arent creative and the first thing you should build, imo, are obelisks in a new city. then market, elder council (you need the extra science) warrior or worker wichever is more needed and then probably happiness is needed.

 

[mcguigan97]

YoAlso check your tech timetable. There's no point in having worker until you have a tech that lets you put it to use.

With all the damned Skeletons (and worse) running around these days, you are going to need lots of warriors if you play raging barbs.

Hmm...typical start for me, it's about 17 turns to Ag, 19 turns to get that worker. So they are productive right away, unless you don't have a river/grassland/floodplains nearby.

A farmed tile brings in 2 extra food (with Ag civic). I believe that you will hit pop 5 faster if you make the worker first.

Again, I don't play raging barbs, the strategy there is of course quite different.

 

[mcguigan97]

Is this a BtS game or a normal one? Because in the normal game the Kazad arent creative and the first thing you should build, imo, are obelisks in a new city. then market, elder council (you need the extra science) warrior or worker wichever is more needed and then probably happiness is needed.

We are talking about the first few turns of the game. As you know the palace provides all the culture you need in your capital.

Outside the capital, for the first couple of cities I usually go obelisk / elder. You can make an argument for doing it the other way around. As for markets, yes, but that is later in the game.

 

[nealhunt]

Thank you for this excellent post! I particularly appreciate that you listed techs, builds, etc. rather than just being general.

One question: analysis I've read indicates that the first build should be worker rather than warriors. Within a relatively short time you catch up to the turns you've lost and then are in a better positions. Did you try worker first and if so, what was your experience?

Also, where is mysticism? A lot of people pop that early to get god-king and elder councils. What's your view on that?

In normal Civ, I will start my worker build so that it hits when I have a tech available to use it. Frequently, that's immediately (e.g. start with Ag and Wheat in the fat cross). As you note, the analysis is pretty clear. It was close back when chopping was 30 hammers to start, but after it was dropped to 20, it was no contest. The only opening build option better than worker-first is a work boat if you start with Fishing and seafood.

The problem with doing that in FFH is that even though you may have 1 or even 2 worker techs available, that doesn't mean your worker won't be sitting idle for a long time once those improvements are made. In a normal game the worker techs keep coming fast enough that it's not likely, but in FFH I find that if I rush the worker it almost always ends up doing nothing. Even when you get to cottaging, you're stuck with non-forest tiles because it's still a long way to Bronze. When you back out the downtime of the worker sitting idle and factor in the more dangerous environment, the warriors are usually the better plan, imho.

There are exceptions. Winery improvment is immediately available with the starting tech and you can pick up Ag as the first tech. If you had ~3 resource tiles that could be accessed with just those techs, it would probably be worth it to start with a worker or make it your second build.

As far as Mysticism, you don't need the Elder Counsels. Markets, Elder Counsels and Obelisks are functionally similar. They increase your total commerce by +2 and open a specialist slot. Whether that's +3 gold/-1 research, +3 culture/-1 gold or +2 research doesn't matter. The total commerce numbers are the same. If you want extra research or extra gold, you can adjust your slider and let the building take up the slack (though early on, culture slider is not available, so Obelisk has some advantage there). In this case, you want the Merchant specialists not just for income but for Gr Merchant points. You don't want to risk polluting that with Sage points.

Great Sages are basically useless for the dwarves. They are no good for lightbulbing because dwarves can't promote Adepts and this early in the game the only city that really benefits from an academy is the capital. You'll pop one Sage for the capital from Writing, so that's covered.

Similarly, God King is great for the early game if you're turtling up but if you're going for an early expansion, the increased city maintenance will quickly gut your income. Since the dwarves aren't Spiritual, I try to keep the civ switches to a minimum. The way I was doing it was to run the defaults until about the 4th city, then switch do a big switch to City States, Apprenticeship, and sometimes Ag, depending on what the terrain was like (not having Ag to count on strong farms is another reason not to build a Worker early).

Basically, this strat bypasses the Mysticism rationales. If you want the Elder Counsels for the added commerce (not the specialists), you'll still get it pretty quickly.

There are some good vanilla civ strat threads discussing Gr Prophet and Gr Merchant strats. Single-specialist strategies can fuel an entire civ's economy from one city of settled great specialists. That's the idea I was going for. A Holy city with shrine, a pile of merchants and priests, and the Bazaar of Mammon will create a ridiculously large income.

 

[nealhunt]

Is this a BtS game or a normal one? Because in the normal game the Kazad arent creative and the first thing you should build, imo, are obelisks in a new city. then market, elder council (you need the extra science) warrior or worker wichever is more needed and then probably happiness is needed.

Opinions vary on this. Some people want to go with optimal city placement in all situations and grab the fat cross ASAP. Personally, I'll usually suffer a bit with suboptimal tile use or suboptimal city placement in order to get more urgent production out earlier. If you're running a specialist economy with the early happiness cap not many tiles are being worked anyway. It's not a big loss if you're city isn't exactly perfectly placed, as long as you get a few critical tiles. I'll work in an Obelisk when it's convenient but it's not a priority.

There's a wargame saying about low quality troops that "quantity is quality." In Civ you build exponentially, so "early is quality." Rush, rush, rush.


At the risk of sounding critical, I'm curious about why you would build all those buildings right away. I don't understand your intent. Would you mind elaborating?

The net of the Obelisk/Market/Counsel trio is +3 culture, +2 gold, +1 research. That seems like a lot of hammers to invest at that stage of the game. If you're a builder, then more improved tiles is better. For the cost of those buildings you could have 2 more cities which, assuming you can get cottages or specialists (only one building instead of 3) up and running, should turn a net profit. As a warmonger alternative, that's enough hammers for a decent military force in the early game and you can go take someone else's city that they built and improved for you.

I almost always max out on those buildings later in the game, but only after hammers are not so critical and the bonuses can benefit from multipliers, like Libraries and Money Changers.

 

[Nefelia]

Is this a BtS game or a normal one? Because in the normal game the Kazad arent creative and the first thing you should build, imo, are obelisks in a new city. then market, elder council (you need the extra science) warrior or worker wichever is more needed and then probably happiness is needed.

Obelisks should be a low priority building for most Dwarf strategies.

Choosing a good starting location with two or so high commerce tiles should allow the Dwarves to found Runes of Kilmorph by year ~130 (on epic adjust for other speeds). Once the Temple of Kilmorph is build, Thanes of Kilmorph can be built in high-production cities to culture-bomb new cities. New cities could focus on building Markets first, and your empire would be spared the expense of one Obelisk per city (both the time wasted in building them and the -1 gold per obelisk).

 

[Caradoc]

I need some kind of Culture to get those other cities up to size and the Obelisk is usually the first way I get to do that. Eventually, I will be able to spread my religion to new cities, but the first ones get Obelisks.

For the Market, I normally don't want to sacrifice research for gold and then convert the gold back to research. But for Khazad I'm trying to accumulate gold as well as do the research, so it works well. The GPP is nice to have as well since Khazad would welcome a Great Merchant.

The Elder Council is OK to have, I suppose, but I usually end up with all the Great Sages I can handle, so I might spring for one later on but don't see it as a priority at the start.

 

[Nefelia]

Great Sages are basically useless for the dwarves. They are no good for lightbulbing because dwarves can't promote Adepts and this early in the game the only city that really benefits from an academy is the capital. You'll pop one Sage for the capital from Writing, so that's covered.

Any mature city will benefit greatly from an Academy. With Runes of Kilmorph spread in each city, and with Markets and Temples of Kilmorph built as well, the Khazad can keep the gold coming in while running 100% science. The returns from an Academy are greater than the +1 and +15 (with Bazaar of Mammon and God King) a Great Merchant can get you.

 

[Nefelia]

I need some kind of Culture to get those other cities up to size and the Obelisk is usually the first way I get to do that. Eventually, I will be able to spread my religion to new cities, but the first ones get Obelisks.

For the Market, I normally don't want to sacrifice research for gold and then convert the gold back to research. But for Khazad I'm trying to accumulate gold as well as do the research, so it works well. The GPP is nice to have as well since Khazad would welcome a Great Merchant.

The Elder Council is OK to have, I suppose, but I usually end up with all the Great Sages I can handle, so I might spring for one later on but don't see it as a priority at the start.

My early game focus is getting Runes asap. Techs: Mining, Agriculture, Ancient Chants, Mysicism, RUNES. If I am lucky and popped one of those techs during exploration, i will found Runes of Kilmorph in my Capital before I am ready to expand. If not, I will let the settler loiter around the cap for a while. Pre-Runes expansion is not a reality for me.

That said, once I do get Runes, I explode outwards with the Warriors and Settlers I had begun building while waiting for Runes. Since my early research goal has been met and there are no other pressing techs to get, I can set my research to 0% and fill up my Vault.

Now that I think of it, the original poster's strategy reminds me of the strat I once employed when playin Elves...spamming cities and Elder Councils/Scientists for an early research bonanza on the way to Leaves. Settlers were then made more expensive in a patch (can't remember which one), and this strat became unviable.

 

[JayThomas]

I've been trying Nealhunt's method for the elves with success so far. Their ability to improve forests with farming or cottages works well with this idea.

I use raging barbs so many warriors are needed early to stem the tide. So I go warrior->warrior->warrior->worker->settler. Then more warriors.

Until I read this artical, I never would of thought to research Fesivals so early for the markets. I'm still stuck on plain CIV mode I guess.

 

[mcguigan97]

... in FFH I find that if I rush the worker it almost always ends up doing nothing ... When you back out the downtime of the worker sitting idle and factor in the more dangerous environment, the warriors are usually the better plan, imho.

There are exceptions ... If you had ~3 resource tiles that could be accessed with just those techs, it would probably be worth it to start with a worker or make it your second build.

As far as Mysticism, you don't need the Elder Counsels. Markets, Elder Counsels and Obelisks are functionally similar.

God King is great for the early game if you're turtling up but if you're going for an early expansion, the increased city maintenance will quickly gut your income. Since the dwarves aren't Spiritual, I try to keep the civ switches to a minimum. The way I was doing it was to run the defaults until about the 4th city, then switch do a big switch to City States, Apprenticeship, and sometimes Ag, depending on what the terrain was like (not having Ag to count on strong farms is another reason not to build a Worker early).

Very good analysis again. I am pursuaded by your mysticism agrument, makes sense. I like the "3+ tiles = worker otherwise no" rule. I'm often on floodplains with ~5 tiles so that might explain my preference.

Regardless, I am going to try your build plan as it is looking better and better as this thread continues.

 

[nealhunt]

With Runes of Kilmorph spread in each city, and with Markets and Temples of Kilmorph built as well...

Heh. Usually, I've built an army and I'm headed off for war long before I get all my cities developed to that point.

Seriously, though, what you describe is pretty much what I think of as the turtle strategy. It sounds like it would work great. I just wanted to do it a different way.

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JayThomas: I think it is a good general expansion strategy. With most civs I wouldn't focus so much on gold. Build a few Markets early, then off to the Elder Councils, Libraries and Great Sages.

I know there are other strategies for the Elves, but with the ability to cottage spam without bronze working, I'm not sure why anyone would bother with anything else. Education->Leaves, cottage spam, and then do whatever you want.

 

[Nefelia]

Everyone turtles in Raging Barb games. Or they die.

But don't mind me, I'm just a sour curmudgeon. ^^

Its a viable strat, it just has a few weaknesses:
- high-cost settlers
- pumping out great merchants (weaker than Great Sage, imo)
- building Markets first will weaken early science and make the rush to be first to Runes/Writing more difficult

Still, this strat would be good with certain starting locations that are high on food resources/flood plains, and with no Gold/Gems in sight. The farm spam would certainly help mitigate the high cost of settlers.

 

[Caradoc]

Concerning higher Settler costs -- It appears to me that the cost of Settlers depends on the Era. In most games, there comes a point when I can build one in about 4 turns and at that point I crank out as many as I think I will need in the long run.