Knights Cross

[Patroklos]

Hello all,

I have to say that of all the military decorations out there throughout history the most recognizable is the Knights Cross (Iron Cross is probobly just as famous). Too me it envokes a great feeling of respect. And it isn't a Nazi invention, though they made it more famous, so it can't be attacked purely on that.

There were five versions of it:

the Knight's Cross

Knight's Cross w. Oakleaves

Knight's Cross w. Oakleave, Swords

Knight's Cross w. Oakleaves, Swords, Diamonds

Knights Cross w. Golden Oakleaves, Swords, Diamonds

My question is, does this award still exist in the modern German military? I know that in 1957 it was declared a military versus a political award so veterans could wear a remade version without any Nazi imagery, but is it still awarded? If it is has it been modified at all?

I hope it is still around.

 

[nonconformist]

There was also the Grand Coss of the Iron Cross (just elaborating)

 

[stalin006]

Well, ive seen new german planes w/ the iron cross in its sides, so i guess is still around. i also think of it as one of the best medals in history.

 

[stalin006]

heres a pic, so i suspect the tradition is alive and well, at least as a symbol

 

[Hitro]

The iron cross symbol as you can see it on the plane in stalin's post is still the symbol of the German armed forces, including the Luftwaffe.

The Knight's cross as such doesn't exist anymore neither does the iron cross. But most of Germany's medals are still cross-shaped, so in a way along the lines of that tradition.

The armed forces for example have the "Ehrenkreuz" (Honor's Cross) in bronze, silver and gold, below you can see the silver version:

Much more well known to the public is the civil "Bundesverdienstkreuz" (Federal Cross of merits) which is given for any kind of merits (whatever that means...) to all kinds of people, including foreigners. Here's a picture of a version of it:

But those things aren't anywhere near as popular as the Iron Cross used to be in different times, in fact quite alot of people don't think anything of them.

 

[stalin006]

well at least those new medals are not bad looking.

 

[Patroklos]

Herman Goering was the only recipiant of the Grand Cross, but I couldn't find a good picture.

I saw a picture of a Bundwehr officer with his WWII Knights Cross with Oak Leaves from 1959. So guess they were no longer awarding them even thought they were letting members wear them.

What a shame, it was a true piece of German history. And I bet they axed it becasue some oversensative hippie said it reminded him of the Nazis.

So what is the equivalent of the American Medel of Honor in Germany.

And for that matter, what do we do for multipe medal of honor winners? Is there something like the Oak Leaves to Swords to Diamonds to Gold?

 

[pawpaw]

Originally posted by Patroklos
Herman Goering was the only recipiant of the Grand Cross

and hans rudel the only winner of the knights cross with golden oakleaves,swords and diamonds

 

[Patroklos]

Just for those who are curious....

The Iron Cross is perhaps the best known and historically rich German award. Its tradition dates back to 1813, when King Friedrich Wilheim III of Prussia first instituted the award during the War of Liberation against Napoleon. Though it was supposed to be a campaign medal, it was re-instituted in 1870 for the Franco-Prussian War, and again in 1914 for World War I. The defeat of Germany in that war did not diminish military pride in the long term, and the Cross continued to be a symbol of prestige in the inter-war years.

The Iron Cross invoked memories of gallant Prussian warriors, the great victories of the Bismark era, and the brave soldiers of World War I. In the opening hours of World War II, Hitler introduced his political imagery to these memories. The Iron Cross then interlaced with the Third Reich, instantly becoming one of the most visually powerful and recognizable military award of all time. The Cross, which retained its original form as designed by Karl Frederich Schinkel, became for the first time a German award (in previous years it been an exclusively Prussian award). With the September 1st 1939 restitution order four grades were implemented; 2nd Class, 1st Class, Knights Cross to the Iron Cross, and Grand Cross to the Iron Cross, but the number of grades increased to eight by war's end.

And for what happened to it...

In 1957, all grades of the Knights Cross were included in the laws which allowed veterans to once again wear war time decorations. The Knights Cross, now devoid of all Nazi symbols, had a spray of Oak Leaves taking the place of the swastika but remained otherwise of identical design. In most cases, the rim lacks the mat silver finish, and though some of the firms that manufactured the original crosses also made the new Knights Crosses, they are generally of lower quality.

Unlike the 1939 version, the 1957 Knights Cross could be worn as a ribbon. This was a longer ribbon than the 1st and 2nd Class, with a small 1957 Iron Cross in the center (pictured below). The original color of the ribbon was preserved, as was the leatherette presentation box.

The Oak Leaves, the Oak Leaves and Swords, and the Diamonds were not modified as they displayed no political motif, but they were still manufactured after 1957 as replacement pieces. The Grand Cross was not reissued, as its only recipient, Hermann Goring, committed suicide while on death row after his conviction at the Nuremberg Trials.

Here is an image of the "modern" version, it s a 1957 picture of the ribbon form. Below is SS Oberscharführer Will Fey; on the right in 1945, and on the left in 1974. He received his Knights Cross on April 29th, 1945, as a tank commander in the 102(502)nd SS-Pz. Detachment, Eastern front.

 

[Thorgrimm]

You know Pat the Iron Cross is ok, but in my opinion there are other medals i would rather see mentioned as these are not associated with a totally evil and despicable government , namely these:

Cheers Thorgrimm

 

[Thorgrimm]

And lets not forget my own service

Cheers Thorgrimm

 

[Thorgrimm]

And i guess to be thorough here is the Air Force's


Cheers Thorgrimm

 

[Zardnaar]

Those are some ugly medals Thorgrimm regardless of what they represent.

 

[Thorgrimm]

Well that is fine but to get those you had to earn them and considering most of them were awarded posthumusly you had to be willing to pay the ultimate price , not be a good party stooge, or a peer of the realm, you had to have honor to get them. And personally i would rather have one of those on my chest than a thousand pieces of tin, issued by the nazi party hacks, in WW2. Now also consider the level of reverence the highest nazi held for the WW2 version, he did not care for them, as he wore the one he recieved in the first world war, when the Iron Cross meant something.


Cheers Thorgrimm

 

[Patroklos]

Thank you for those pics Thorgrimm, but do you know how they signify multiple awards?

And Like I said, the Iron Cross awards predate the Nazis by centuries, but I figured someone would be reationary and judge them only by their latest users. Hardly fair, hardly correct, and entirely historially inaccurate.

a thousand pieces of tin

The Knights Cross was often made of silver or platinum (in one case gold), while all American Medel of Honor awards are brass. There was a big controversy over why whatever that civilain achievement award we give out is solid gold and the very prestegious Medel of Honor is brass, and at one point even had plastic pieces. I do like the overall apperance of the award though.

 

[Thorgrimm]

Actually Pat that quote comes from my father, as most of the iron crosses that he had seen issued were made of tin, and if you notice the rest of my post i stated only the WW2 version, was bad, as my grandfather had a WW1 version which still hangs in my living room, the point i was trying to make is that the nazi's ruined the great German decoration, by giving it to anybody who was a good nazi, my father witnessed many times nazi members recieving it for turning in "undesireables". And as to the content, Pat if you do not know that it is not base materials that matter, but the honor and way it was recieved, then you have my sympathies, as you will never know the true meaning of the word.

Cheers Thorgrimm

 

[Illustrious]

If it's famous German medals you're after, surely none was ever so fine as the Pour le Merite or "Blue Max"....

Go here...

Or, for the greatest medal ever, there is always the Victoria Cross...

Go here...

 

[Patroklos]

Actually Pat that quote comes from my father, as most of the iron crosses that he had seen issued were made of tin, and if you notice the rest of my post i stated only the WW2 version, was bad, as my grandfather had a WW1 version which still hangs in my living room

The Iron cross was a very common award and was no doubt low quality. The KC of the IC is nowhere near the same thing, though at wars end they were low quality out of nessecity.

And as to the content, Pat if you do not know that it is not base materials that matter, but the honor and way it was recieved, then you have my sympathies, as you will never know the true meaning of the word.

I have seen you level such critisisms against myself and other before and it is very arrogant. I understand you are a Marine and a GySGT, but do not imagine you are the only military person here? Just becasue I don't feel the need to announce the fact that I am in the military in every post I make, nor should I as you should distance your personal opinion from your official position, does no mean you have any ground to lecture me on honor. I understand very well the meaning behind it, which should be backed up with material value as well. Is your wedding ring made of tin, how about your wifes engagement ring? Didn't think so.

the point i was trying to make is that the nazi's ruined the great German decoration, by giving it to anybody who was a good nazi, my father witnessed many times nazi members recieving it for turning in "undesireables".

A typical reaction from a non informed reationary. This is not the case at all and a simple google search will dispell this unfounded belief, no need to even study t further to figure this out.

The Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross was a highly regarded award, being somewhat the equal of the American Medal of Honor. As well as being awarded for individual actions, the RK could also be awarded to a unit commander in recognition of the performance of his unit as a whole. The RK could also be awarded to foreigners, and 43 such awards were made during WWII. Of the 7,318 RK holders, approximately 1,000 are still alive as of 1999 and an unknown number were killed in action or are listed as missing in action during WWII, but approximately 2,500 (34%) are thought to have held this fate. The first Gefreiter (Corporal) to be awarded the RK was Hubert Brinkforth, awarded the RK on March 7th, 1941 as a member of the 14.PzJg-Kompanie/Inf.Reg.25. The three youngest men to be awarded the RK were Gefreiter Christian Lohrey, awarded the RK on March 11th, 1945 as a Kompanie-Trupp-Melder in 3./Pz.Gr.Reg.41, Oberfähnrich/Leutnant Hans Bretz, awarded the RK on May 6th, 1945 as a Zugführer in PzVernichtungs-Brigade Oberschlesien, and Gefreiter Manfred Kuhnert, awarded the RK on January 22nd, 1944 as a Richtschütze in 14.PzJg-Kompanie/Gr.Reg.442.

Criteria for the award varied within the Wehrmacht and changed as the war progressed. To receive any grade of the Iron Cross required dedication, but recipients of the Knights Cross had to demonstrate a unique kind of valor. Those who were awarded the Knights Cross deserved it, there was little room for political manipulation. Hitler had stated that the Cross would be distributed evenly among the ranks, and it was. This can proved by the fact that only 7% of recipients held the rank of General at the time they were presented with the Knights Cross.

Knights Cross: 7,318 to Germans, 43 to foreigners = 7,361 total

w/Oak Leaves: 882 to Germans, 8 to foreigners = 890 total

w/Swords: 159 to Germans, 1 to a foreigner = 160 total

w/Diamonds: 27

w/ Gold: 1 Hans Rudel

It must be noted that to earn the higher awards, you needed to have the previous. I am not sure if the numbers count the higher award winners in the lower categories too, but either way it was obviouly not handed out for frivolus political reasons. The only exception is the Grand Cross, of which only 12 were to be awarded at the end of the war, and were designed from inception to be awarded to the strategists/politicians who contributed the overall victory (got a little ahead of themselves). Only Herman Goering was awarded this for the Luftwaffe's success in the early Blitzkrieg.

While the source here equates it to the MoH, I would say that the KC itself is more like a Navy Cross, with the KC w/Swords and on bieng the equivalent of the MoH. It should be remembered though that both classes of medals were designed with different purposes in mind.

It should also be remembered that the Knight's Cross was a Wehrmacht (that means all branches) award, while the US equivalents (Navy Cross, Distiguished Flying Cross, Distiguished Service Cross) were divided between the branches. The KC should be compared to these combined, not divided. If this is the case the Americans were far more frivolous with their decorations than the Germans. Which is amazing considering that the Americasn fought for fewer years, in far less bloody campaigns for the most part, and with about 1/4 of the men under arms.

 

[Thorgrimm]

Now Pat subdivide your numbers a little bit more, of the RitterKreuz and above how many were nazi party members, of foreign stooges of the Nazis?


"The Iron cross was a very common award and was no doubt low quality. The KC of the IC is nowhere near the same thing, though at wars end they were low quality out of nessecity. "

This is why is still say you have no concept of what honor means if you think the material it was made out of is more improtant than the reason it was recieved.


"A typical reaction from a non informed reationary. This is not the case at all and a simple google search will dispell this unfounded belief, no need to even study t further to figure this out."

This is where you fascination with the nazis peek through Pat. As for uninformed reactionary, you should take your head out of your copy of mein kampf and study a little better. My dad seen the event happen, many times, and since he was in the war in the German Army, and i have read many accounts of where they gave iron crosses to good party stooges, you are the uninformed one my friend.


"I have seen you level such critisisms against myself and other before and it is very arrogant. I understand you are a Marine and a GySGT, but do not imagine you are the only military person here? Just becasue I don't feel the need to announce the fact that I am in the military in every post I make, nor should I as you should distance your personal opinion from your official position, does no mean you have any ground to lecture me on honor. I understand very well the meaning behind it, which should be backed up with material value as well. Is your wedding ring made of tin, how about your wifes engagement ring? Didn't think so."

Well Pat about this passage is this, DARN RIGHT!!! And if you were a true warrior you would be proud of your service to. And as to the material of my wifes ring, when we first got married i could only afford a ring made out of brass, when i could afford a gold one i bought it for her. Now i will give you one guess as to which one she wears and why, but considering you are still lost in the dark about honor and value, i will tell you. She prefers the BRASS ring and wears that one. Why you ask? Well it has more meaning to her than gold or diamonds, because it was the first she recieved and the most heartfelt one. So before you go spouting trivialities check your facts. And i will be waiting with anticipation your numbers of how many reciepients were nazi party members or their foreign stooges like Leon Degrelle of Belgium. Oh BTW i have read his book and it is a hoot. You can tell he was a good nazi.

Cheers Thorgrimm

 

[Patroklos]

Thorgirmm you are a fool.Moderator Action: warned, flaming
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

It is not that I have no pride in my service, I am just not arrogant about it or interject it where it has no relevance. I also understand that bieng an official of the US government, it is not my perogative to associate my personal views with the line of my country or service, in that capacity. I don't expect you to undersand this, gunny, as you position requires you to only have accountability versus responsiblity. I have told you before that you are a bad Marine, basically for your arrogance. Now I will add stupidy. Stocism is something you might want to try, all the GOOD Marines seem to like it. I won't hold you as the bar for them as a group though, as you are the only one out of the hundreds I know that proved to be a bafoon. Rare form Thorgrimm!!!

I bet your father, one of 15 million Germans who served, knew all of the 9000 KC recipants personally. I'll help you out, he knew none. I never said the recipiants of the awards were not Nazis. That is you bieng reationary again. However, bieng Nazi is not exclusionary to having performed effectively and with valor in combat. But then I guess your father would have to be a Nazi to if we follow your line since I am sure he recieve a few Nazi awards in his day, and we will just continue your rant and call you one one too for bieng raised by one. Sound ridiculous? Perhaps you should change your line of thinking then.

The Iron cross was a very common award and was no doubt low quality. The KC of the IC is nowhere near the same thing, though at wars end they were low quality out of nessecity.

That statment was in response to your assertion that the awards were made of tin, which was false. It made no conection to the intrinsic value imbued through the actions required to get them. I
understand you need to take things out of context to make sense of your warped logic, but please confine your idiocies to your own threads.

But you DID by your wife a golden ring later, and would have back then if you had the money invalidating your point. The fact is that your wife liked her brass ring because of the meaning, but it would have been the same if you originally gave her the gold ring in the first place. Why get her a new one? Why even buy a ring at all, just rest comforted by the fact that you know your together. Because you wanted something tactile. If if your going to make a physical object to represent something of such sanctity, like an MoH, make as beautiful and special as possible. The rarity of the material and craftmanship of the actual device is symbolic of the rarity of the award and the valor needed to achieve it. Your a hipocrit.

You are a troll, and a bad one. This thread had nothing to do with the Nazis until YOU mentioned them. I also love that because I have a perchance of siting sources instead of just tossing out ignorant opinions that makes me a Nazi. It is YOUR acertion that all KC recipiants recieved them only from political connections, so it YOUR responsibility to back that up academically. I know your a Marine and scared of books, but conquer you fear and rush that machinegun nest. That image should help you stop your shaking as you roam the halls of books that prove your hollywood movie undertanding of the world to be a childish dream.

If not agreeing with you makes then unnhonorable, an Nazi, and their military service worthless, oh well. I would see a psychiatrist though, you seem to have a problem with projecting your inadequecies onto others. Its okay gunny, we are here for you.

On Topic