Kongo is One of the Most Powerful in the Later Stages

Just in case someone has missed this: theming bonuses apply to Kongo's bonus yields as well. So for a themed archeological museum, you get +12 production, +12 food, and +24 gold, in addition to the normal culture and tourism.

Since you are building those in every city, you should easily be able to theme a few of them. Add in at least a couple of Mbanzas, and you have a pretty amazing yield output, which you can get without working any tiles.
 
Oh yeah. That's right. I noticed it in my games that my museums were pumping massive amounts of food and production (12 each) but when I looked on the Civ Page it only said +2 food and prod.

I actually edited it out. LOL. Even better.
 
Also, for relics, all you need is Mt. Saint Micheals or Yerevan so you can martyr your apostles. That comes in early enough. And once you have that you're guaranteed an extra 10 prod and 10 food and a crap ton of culture in your capital.

And that's assuming you don't get lucky and get a relic from a goody hut.

Also, Kongo early game is better than German early game due to their UU and the crap ton of forests and rainforests they can Magnus chop. Start bias matters.

I will say... it is still not more solid than Germany in productivity. Competiting wonders is lengthy and not the edge of Kongo, except you are saving all those Magnus chop for Mount St Michel. That means it will stop the city from having alot of improvements/districts. That will also hinder you from chasing the Chichen Itza, the jungle powerhouse.

Yerevan is not always around in the map and you need to send numerous envoys to ensure the suzerainship. AIs seem to be mad at conquering CS, and real players will also compete the suzerainship (especially when it is so valuable for religious victory).

Even if you have Yerevan or Mt St Michel, you need to get apostles, which are only granted when one civ spreads their religions. If you only have one neighbor with a religion, or if one religious civ stops others from converting your cities.... then they will be a waste.

Combining all the above risks, the dreamy +10 production from relics are just nice on paper, but not practical. While you are waiting other civs to send their "messengers of God", Germany has alreadt erected a +7 Hansa along the river.

I will say that the immense power to grab great people is still the spotlight of Kongo, rather than relics
 
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Free +12 Production and Food and +24 gold in your themed Archeology Museums is nothing to sneeze at in the mid to late game. And if you talk about "early game", I'd like to point out that Kongo has more production than Germany in the early game due to their start bias and a good early game UU.

Before you get your Hanzas up, you could already be dead as Germany from a Ngao rush. If you don't have a good early game UU, the primary counter to early rushes is walls and archers. Doesn't work against Kongo.
 
Before you get your Hanzas up, you could already be dead as Germany from a Ngao rush. If you don't have a good early game UU, the primary counter to early rushes is walls and archers. Doesn't work against Kongo.

Horseman can be equally powerful, if they have got horses.
 
Another little thing I want to point out: Kongo could be even better with an alternative leader, as their main drawback, the inability to build holy sites and found a religion, are part of the leader ability. The leader ability is also what provides the apostles for building Mbanzas, but those are a lot less useful when you can't found your own religion.

Imagine replacing the leader with someone who has a decent, or good, ability. Germany keeps getting mentioned, their leader gives them the extra military policy card slot, and the combat bonus against city states.
 
Also, pastures and iron mines can be pillaged. What's the primary protection against pillagers? Archers. What are Ngao resistant to? Archers.

It reminds me of the Huskarl from Age of Empires 2.

Like, if you get your horse or your iron mine pillaged, you're kind of f-ed against Kongo 'cuz the only thing you can build then are archers and warriors.

And its not like you can pillage them back since Ngao don't need Iron.

And since they start in the forests, they're hard to rush, too.
 
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Another little thing I want to point out: Kongo could be even better with an alternative leader, as their main drawback, the inability to build holy sites and found a religion, are part of the leader ability.

Yeah, on smaller maps Kongo is at a disadvantage, cos no religious victory. (Though with R&F on smaller maps domination is easier now).

But on larger maps (which is pretty much all I play nowadays cos they're epic) Kongo is very strong, esp. if you start near Kandy ;)
 
But the point is this: even on smaller maps Kongo is fine ' cuz if two civs get into a religious war, Kongo gets all the benefits.

They get free apostles.
 
I'm just playing a game as Kongo so here's my opinion.
1.In a swordman rush speed is very important. Ngao Mbeba is more expensive than a normal swordman means more gold needed to upgrade, then later in time. What make swordman rush become less effective is the strength of the city itself, so Ngao Mbeba don't last longer than a normal swordman. I think the main advantage of Ngao Mbeba is to attack a city filled with forest/jungle. Quicker put in siege.

2.Kongo can't build holy site, thus no temple to actully put relic in. Normally you will need Mont St. Michel to confirm a relic. But it comes a bit late, and you need to find a AI actively building a lot of Apostle to sacrifice your Apostle. Palace may be good for storing relics, but in my game I just got GW,GA too fast so still no room. amphitheter and museum just not cheap. Selling them maybe a choice but I just don't like for pursuiting a culture victory.

3.M'banza is good if have to build a lot of cities without fresh water. Even good if having access to a lot of luxury resource. But not very useful if lacking amenity. Also more population is better only if they have proper place to work.
 
I would argue that Germany's bonuses for production are superior due to being vastly more consistent and more widespread, because building a cluster of CH-Hansas only requires a patch of open land. They also have arguably the best gameplay for packing cities densely. Kongo wants to have a lot of tall, large footprint cities. That requires space; in a vacuum, Germany could occupy the same amount space and just have more of everything. The Mbanza is amazing but it doesn't really help if you have cities packed in pretty well.- especially with the boosts from classical republic and democracy now in R&F.

See this thread, the second half of my post laying out why the Hansa is so good. You can be cranking 10-20+ production from every Hansa if you plan. Starting at apprenticeship!

Further, the outback station vastly outstrips the Kongolese production bonus because again- you can put them down all over the place without precondition, and they get adjacency bonuses. +12 production from some museums is pretty lackluster considered motivated Aussies can whip that out of 4-6 outback stations, and they still have tons and tons more.

Now, if we could combine the kongo artifact bonus with the British Museum's automatic theming, then we'd be talking...
 
The factory bonuses don't stack anymore except with Magnus. Also, your palace has like 5 places for relics. And some of the cities you conquer can store relics too.

Lets look at opportunity cost. Hansa might be half cost, but unless I'm wrong the factory and the workshops are still built at normal cost. I understand a lot of games are over at that point, but if early bonuses are the priority then everyone should just play Gilgamesh or Rome or Scythia or Monty.

Looking at the Wiki:

Archeologist (400 prod)
Theatre Square, Amphitheatre, and Mueseum (150+265+54= 469). So 869 production to get an archeologist and a Mueseum.

Workshop + Factory + Hansa+ Power Plant = 390 + 75 + 27+ 580 = 1072.

But power plants can cover 4-5 cities. Most cities will just have a Hansa and a Workshop.

So: 4 German cities covered by 1 Powerplant 1 Factory and 3 Workshops:

1072 + 492 * 3 + 390 = 2900-ish hammers.

4 Kongo cities with Archeological Museums: 4 * 1072 = 4288 hammers.

Also, the Germans get the bonuses earlier so the Germans definitely have the edge in opportunity cost.

BUT that's not what this thread is about. This thread is about the LATE GAME (I was careful in my title). Each fully themed archeological museum provides 12 food 12 production 24 gold (!) and a crap ton of culture. So let's discount the culture and the gold at a 2:1 ratio so that comes out about 48 resources/turn per museum. For 4 Museums that's 192 resources/turn

In contrast, the Powerplant and the Hansas and the Workshops and the Factory provide +16 (Powerplant bonus for 4 cities) + 24 (adjacency bonuses for 4 Hansas), + 8 (Workshops Bonus for 4 cities). + 12 (Factory Bonus for 4 cities) or 60 resources/turn.

192 is a lot larger than 60. But the Germans get their bonuses earlier and easier (most of it's the Hansa itself) and all of their bonuses are in hammers. So the Germans definitely have the edge in the mid-game.

But the Kongo beat the Germans in the late game. Once you finally set them up those Archeological Muesuems are MONSTERS that provide production, food, culture, tourism, AND gold. With Kongo archeological museuems you don't need any other district other than a couple of campuses and a Commercial District or 2 (for roads) because they provide everything that you'll need.

Also, every time you build a theatre square, you get an apostle, which can be martyred for relics. The Germans have a more effective Magnus so those two effects even out.

The Kongo can easily go for a culture and a domination victory, simultaneously.

Also, when it comes to Swordsman rushes, the Kongo starts with a lot more forests and rainforests to chop. Their swordsmen might be more expensive, but you can chop them out reasonably well with Magnus. They start with 2 or 3 more forests/rainforests/city than almost anyone else.

The math is this: each fully theme archeological museum provides 12 food, 12 production, 24 gold, and an obscene amount of culture.

The Kongo Archeological Museum is NOT a Museum. This is the wrong way of thinking about it. What it actually is is a super-powered power plant, commercial district, culture generator and farm all rolled into one obscene tile space.

The Kongo archaeological museum is a builder's wet dream. And with your early game forests, you can get enough production to military or settler rush into 6-7 cities and then build to your heart's delight.
 
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It is worth pointing out that Kongo can't expand into snow or desert. (Tundra yes, providing there is forest).

So Kongo is very situational. Large maps with not a lot of desert or snow. Desert and snow civs make good allies for Kongo. E.g: Kongo + Nubia on an Africa map.
 
The math is this: each fully theme archeological museum provides 12 food, 12 production, 24 gold,

Certainly, themed artifacts are unbelievably strong! I might have to try this in an advanced start soon...

+ 24 (adjacency bonuses for 4 Hansas),

You are, however, definitely underestimating how easy it is to exploit a hansa's ability to stack CH bonuses. If you can theme half your archaeological museums, I can get half my hansas to +18-+20 production. It's not uncommon to get +20; even 3 cities placed close together can, without any resources, guarantee 12, 12, and 16 for their Hansas. (The more unobstructed land you have, the more cities you can combine to do this; the maximum is 6 cities with one Hansa getting the full +30, with a cluster average of ~15ish iirc)

Un-themed museums are worth a lot less; but I can do Hansa sorcery like this in every single city. So I guess you have to gamble a little / there are only so many artifacts to dig up to get the full Kongo Payoff. How hard could it be to get that delicious themed set?!
 
Have you tried trading for relics and sculptures? Actually the AI will value your GW of art and writing probably more than the relics and sculptures. I've traded one GW for 3 relics & sculptures in a game! :eek:

Really? I don't think so. AIs value their relics and artifacts very very much in my experience. They wont give me any bargain even if I offer all great works and cities. But great works can be bought, if you offer 400-500 gold and have a good relationship with AIs.
 
Really? I don't think so. AIs value their relics and artifacts very very much in my experience. They wont give me any bargain even if I offer all great works and cities. But great works can be bought, if you offer 400-500 gold and have a good relationship with AIs.

I have a save game of Kongo (on the New World map from the UN Earth maps pack). See game save. In this game I trade a great work of art with China AFAIK for 3 sculptures (maybe not relics).

But I have in last game I played (as Poundmaker) got a relic in a peace deal with The Khmer. See screenshot from this post in the Bugs forum -> https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/1-0-0-229-poundmaker-sees-spies.630294/#post-15074734
 

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