Kongo is One of the Most Powerful in the Later Stages

[Victoria]

Kongo are quirky at best. Civ VI is a game where you can look at some ability and say that’s OP but in reality other civs are far superior because they can win faster.
Civ VI is designed primarily for early warring civs to finish the game faster. That is the only realistic empirical measurement there is. Kongo fails in this area.
I remember playing my first TSL Kongo and thought I would own but it was just a fail. Off I won but much slower than say playing as Gilgamesh.

 

[blackbutterfly]

Civ VI is designed primarily for early warring civs to finish the game faster. That is the only realistic empirical measurement there is. Kongo fails in this area.

Yes, there's no substitute for early expansion (and war mongering). But many of you ignore one thing: the map. In that regard Kongo does not fail at all on many occasion.

Download and open up my game save of Kongo playing The New World: my earliest culture win -> https://forums.civfanatics.com/thre...-the-later-stages.630247/page-2#post-15075182

 

[Victoria]

The New World: my earliest culture win

Turn 281? That’s pretty late really. I do agree that if your game goes over 200 turns Kongo can get some strength.

 

[blackbutterfly]

Turn 281? That’s pretty late really.

It's a Classical start. I usually start in Classical these days. That game was to play test the new map The New World I added to the United Nations Earth map pack -> https://forums.civfanatics.com/resources/united-nations-earth-with-tsl-198x199.26554/

Also I usually go for early domination then figure out which non-domination victory to end with. But I know some of you have figured out very early Space and Culture wins on standard maps. But I don't play Mickey Mouse standard maps anymore

 

[MarigoldRan]

Well, duh. Of course Kongo is weaker than Giggles or Scythia. But so are the Germans.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

To be honest, Kongo is a Civ which all of its unique abilities are negative.
UA: In vanilla you lose the chance of Papal Primacy, in Rise and Fall that's era points from religion. This annoys players more than the positive side of +50% on certain type of GPs.
UD: You lose a lot of gold, really a lot from not being able to build normal neighborhoods, also placing them in natural forests or rainforests means you can no longer chop them, so they're actually very very expensive if you take the potential chop yield into consideration. A district with no use and I won't build them except for city-state conquests.
When you can plant trees the game is about to end so this is of no use.
Since we never really construct them, the only thing this UD does is to block your access of ~200 gold per city.
UU: Swordsman with more production but reduced strength and no 1-iron build-upgrade method? Horrible. Since swordsmans are rarely used, this malus is not very big, but we shall admit that the UU is negative.

The only positive side is the starting bias of rainforests. I'm pretty sure all of its unique abilities being removed leads to a better game.

 

[MarigoldRan]

You can build Mbanzas on artificial forests that you get later so chop all you want.
Virtually immune to archer fire. No iron means you get your UU even in a non-iron start. Same can't be said for Romans.
The extra mobility of the UU is seriously underrated.
Free apostles. And you aren't going to get points for religion on Diety, at least not in the early game.

 

[Victoria]

The extra GPP is nice

 

[MarigoldRan]

The extra GPP is very nice, but the Kongo are very good at early war with an archer-immune UU and lots of forests.

 

[Lily_Lancer]

The extra GPP is nice

Are there any "nice" sides?

Artists/Musicians, I guess they don't have any actual usages since art mesuem/broadcast towers are never built.

Merchants, who bother building hubs in rise and fall?

The only thing is Writer+50%, yes that's a point, but you need to have writer point first, that's already too late since theatre is not on the mercanary line.

In fact the palace+4 slot part is better than GP+50% part.

Sometimes exploded holy-sites still provide yields, I don't know if it is a bug or sth. That actually makes Kongo stronger. But this is a game bug instead of designated strength I guess.

 

[MarigoldRan]

Well, if only Magnus chops matter then the Kongo definitely has the edge there.

If that's more important than anything else, and if everything else is discounted, like how you're arguing, then I can use your own argument against you and point out that Kongo is one of the best now that we have good ole Magnus.

 

[Kimiimaro]

*Sigh* I guess this is the right place to argue with people about Kongo, defending their qualities, but I've done that twice already and I'm not in a mood of doing this for the third time. I won't convince the people who claim it's weak and the people who claim it's weak won't convince me.

By the way, I'll leave this here. It's a poll, started by me, showing the most competent AI leaders. Look closely on who is the winner. https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/the-most-competent-ai-leaders.621672/

 

[Victoria]

Are all of the voters competent?
I think if you have played Kongo a fair amount and also many other civs then you can make up your own mind. Every survey gives a different result. At least Kongo is not rubbish like England.

 

[MarigoldRan]

Depends on what you mean by "competent." Like, if you want "fastest wins" just play Monty or Giggles or Scythia.

But comparison wise, Kongo is up there with Germany.

And in the poll on AI competence it wasn't even close. Kongo won by a mile.

If they start close to you, don't even bother rushing them with archers.

 

[Victoria]

Depends on what you mean by "competent." Like, if you want "fastest wins"

Like understands the value and efficiency of things.
Efficient = faster = more OP.

You can sit there all day drooling over industrial zones and the Uber production they bring but they are in expense pretty pointless to build in most situations as the rules currently stand.

However anecdotal enjoyment is king for many and I do not really want to p on any more parades, it not a nice thing to do, the intention was to just be devils advocate, are you really sure they are that good?

 

[Kyro]

Like understands the value and efficiency of things.
Efficient = faster = more OP.

You can sit there all day drooling over industrial zones and the Uber production they bring but they are in expense pretty pointless to build in most situations as the rules currently stand.

However anecdotal enjoyment is king for many and I do not really want to p on any more parades, it not a nice thing to do, the intention was to just be devils advocate, are you really sure they are that good?

The point of contention in this thread hangs on the premise of that equation alone: Faster = More OP? For many who don't agree with the current game direction that statement is inherently false. There are those who review Civilizations based on their potential in the long run rather than immediate benefit or speed.

From what I understand, the OP's viewpoint is centred on the productivity and potential of stacking Relics/ Themed Artifacts in the long run. That implies an inherent trust of such investments in Civ 6 paying off when in actuality they do not with regards to Speedy Victories alone. OP is right that Kongo is strong later on, but for more elitist players the term "long run" seems to be frowned upon since victory is all that matters.

In a case where Science Victory is not an option and the competition between Humans is dragged out over far longer than a normal AI game for example, Kongo will emerge to be far more advantageous than most as far as peaceful measures are concerned. Of course all that non-warring benefit is quite pointless in the late game if the opponents are the Zulus/Aztecs etc.who will just win by domination. That said the point remains that if the opponents are not overpowered warmongers Kongo will have a significant edge in the long run.

 

[MarigoldRan]

You know, it gets boring playing Scythia and Montezuma all the time. A bit of diversity is necessary.

And while Kongo is NOT top 5 in the early game, it certainly is top ten in the early game. The Ngao is a lot like the Gothic Huskarl from AOE2 and the forest bias means the Kongo starts with a lot of early game production. There have been many many occasions where a Ngao have survived at <10 health because of its anti-range bonus after they got ambushed by multiple archers. They're weaker against melee than legions, but they're stronger against archers and city defenses, which you will face a lot of. The legion gets an extra build, but the Ngao has more mobility. The two are comparable in quality though legions are easier to steamroll due to their ability to forest chop after they conquer a city.

The AI builds a lot more archers now, I've noticed. Both the Mongols and the Zulus mass them.

What's good against archers? Ngao.

 

[Jarhead60]

The point of contention in this thread hangs on the premise of that equation alone: Faster = More OP? For many who don't agree with the current game direction that statement is inherently false. There are those who review Civilizations based on their potential in the long run rather than immediate benefit or speed.

From what I understand, the OP's viewpoint is centred on the productivity and potential of stacking Relics/ Themed Artifacts in the long run. That implies an inherent trust of such investments in Civ 6 paying off when in actuality they do not with regards to Speedy Victories alone. OP is right that Kongo is strong later on, but for more elitist players the term "long run" seems to be frowned upon since victory is all that matters.

In a case where Science Victory is not an option and the competition between Humans is dragged out over far longer than a normal AI game for example, Kongo will emerge to be far more advantageous than most as far as peaceful measures are concerned. Of course all that non-warring benefit is quite pointless in the late game if the opponents are the Zulus/Aztecs etc.who will just win by domination. That said the point remains that if the opponents are not overpowered warmongers Kongo will have a significant edge in the long run.

I agree. Seems that it is an argument between fast (which is not what the OP is talking about) and long term. Those who want to play fast and efficient games are right with their points but they all seem to bypass that premise of the original post that Kongo is most powerful in LATER stages. I know there are a lot of people playing that are not playing for the fastest most efficient win (myself included). For us Kongo is fun. Capable of some early warring and great for building up a substantial and populous empire. And I would much rather play as Kongo than against Kongo for my play style.

 

[Victoria]

For us Kongo is fun

Ansaloutely, not disagreeing in the slightest.
I personally do not play with fast starting civs but rubbishy starting civs. My games will take me over 200 turns sometimes but I must say that I always have expected Kongo to do better than It does.
Most powerful late? Not sure I have seen a valid empirical argument about it.

 

[halfhalfharp]

I have a save game of Kongo (on the New World map from the UN Earth maps pack). See game save. In this game I trade a great work of art with China AFAIK for 3 sculptures (maybe not relics).

But I have in last game I played (as Poundmaker) got a relic in a peace deal with The Khmer. See screenshot from this post in the Bugs forum -> https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/1-0-0-229-poundmaker-sees-spies.630294/#post-15074734

well, peace deals are not normal trading, as you can even take cities. I am quite confident that relics and artifacts are very hard to get in default settings of trade.
Sculptures are considered art pieces to AI, I supposed.