Korea Deity Photojournal: I Hope You Like Science

[CrazyG]

Alright its time for tradition this game. In theory I will going tradition, artistry, rationalism to show off those policies. We will see how the game goes. Korea is a classic science tradition civ. I'm excited to show off tradition and its newly changed opening social policy.

Spoiler Game Settings :

Deity Difficulty
Standard Speed
Standard Size, 8 civs, 16 city states
Continents
Strategic Balance
No events
No ancient ruins
No tech trading

This game I manually selected 5 of the enemy civs. There are three of my most hated warmongers, a science powerhouse, and a culture powerhouse. The remaining two will be random. This was a suggestion to try and make the game challenging.

I will not build Terracotta Army (I don't want the same wonder in all three photojournals)

Here is my starting location. I choose to move 1 tile south. This lets me work a truffles with citizens 1 and 2, and it means that my first border growth with almost certainly be the gold for citizen 3. I learn that India is in the game because someone takes a pantheon turn 1 (Love).

Truffles are cool. The monopoly is +3 food per tile, so I would like to connect 5 copies quickly, hopefully I will need only 2 cities to do so. If I reveal some deer, I can consider taking Goddess of the Hunt, food, faith and culture would make for a great tradition start.

My first tech is trapping because of my luxury. It also allows me to build an archer instead of a warrior, which is nice. After that I will research pottery for settlers. Then its wheel-->calendar so I can build a herbalist, which provides +1 hammer on camps and provides food.

Build order was monument then shrine. I think its really important to go monument first with tradition. I received 7 culture and some gold for meeting city states. I was able to buy a worker thanks to truffles giving me all that gold. On turn 19 I open tradition, putting my capital to 5 population. I'm selling my truffles as soon as I connect them

Turn 21 has a big decision. I just finished my shrine and finished pottery, so I have two options. I can build a settler, its 9 turns to build. Or I can build an archer, grow, and wait for my next social policy (all of which takes 8 turns, the timing seems good, right?). I'm not sure which approach was overall stronger, but I choose to build the settler. There is a city with 5 camps to my north. The pathfinder is just hanging out around the capital to watch for barbarians. Once I build an archer he will go back to scouting.

This was funny, I fortified the pathfinder next to this camp, just to gain some XP. The barbarian in the camp attacked me until he died, so I was able to clear the now empty camp. I bought a second worker this turn as well. On turn 29 I earn my second social policy. I choose sovereignty for the faith, normally I take justice for the production. I wait until I grow to population 6, then I work the artist non stop.

After the settler my capital builds archer, council, herbalist, 2nd settler, horsemen. The newly bought worker goes to the new city so he can improve the tiles ASAP. I researched animal husbandry, then military theory. I have my eye on mathematics for those gardens that hang. My capital works the artist non-stop, I have a quest for the artist and I want culture now, the wonder race will be intense.

The second city builds monument first (this should always be the default for a second city in my opinion. Culture is important.
Second is herbalist, because its working camps and I want production. I would normally build well second, however I don't have mining yet.
Next is shrine because I want faith.
Next is council to help me race towards mathematics. I was about to take the social policy that buffed councils as well.
After that it builds horsemen for the coming wars.

It looks like I'm a very crowded continent with Brazil, Maya, and Askia. I have territorial disputes with Brazil and Askia (even though we have a buffer of city states between us). Brazil needs to die, he settled right in my face. Looks like he hasn't researched animal husbandry though.

Picture of the second city. I bought a tile to direct its border growth. 5 camps means 5 culture and 5 faith, this is a great start. I wasn't sure where to settle this guy, however Brazil had military nearby and a settler close, so I decided not to take any chances on this. No freshwater, but its a great city. This turn I connect the last truffles for a monopoly, causing my growth to soar.

Alright so I'm building the hanging gardens, I just finished mathematics (going mining next). I can reduce those 8 turns to just 5, but I need to invest and I don't have enough gold. There is a city state quest to connect spices, Brazil has the only copy. My capital wants gems, Brazil has the only copy. So I trade Brazil for both, it costs me all my gold and all my horses. Then I declare war on the next turn, getting all my gold back.

Its time for war.

 

[Stalker0]

So I trade Brazil for both, it costs me all my gold and all my horses. Then I declare war on the next turn, getting all my gold back.

Its time for war.

Ah yes the Game of Thrones school of civ playing

 

[Owlbebach]

Build order was monument then shrine. I think its really important to go monument first with tradition.

In fact i recently found out that if you have like 2 that you get from tiles than with Tradition you can get your Pantheon almost as fast as with Shrine first. You just take +3 policy faster and that helps you a lot. Shrine first is still a bit faster, but not a lot and you will be in a much better spot overall. Shrine first should be taken only if you really want one particular Pantheon and you know that AI loves it a lot (like festivals in my game)

I'm not sure which approach was overall stronger, but I choose to build the settler.

Settler is better for sure. Thats not like pop growth, you'll get that policy anyway, and each turn you wait for settler delays all your settlers by 1 turn, so you actually waste 1 turn of production in every city. This is quite important.

The second city builds monument first (this should always be the default for a second city in my opinion. Culture is important.
Second is herbalist, because its working camps and I want production. I would normally build well second, however I don't have mining yet.
Next is shrine because I want faith.

Are you comfortable with Religion when doing like this? When i want religion i usually build Shrines first in every city and also invest into them when possible. And even when doing so i do not get Religion every time, sometimes it is not enough cause AI just takes all 5 Religions before turn 80

 

[CrabHelmet]

Do you intend to conquer anything in this war, or was it simply to get the Gold and WLTKD? You don't seem to have much of a force...

 

[CrazyG]

Are you comfortable with Religion when doing like this? When i want religion i usually build Shrines first in every city and also invest into them when possible. And even when doing so i do not get Religion every time, sometimes it is not enough cause AI just takes all 5 Religions before turn 80

I have not seen AI get all 5 religions by turn 80 in a long time. The only civ who founded before me was India. Also I already had 3 camps connected in my capital, plus I took the faith belief really early.

Do you intend to conquer anything in this war, or was it simply to get the Gold and WLTKD? You don't seem to have much of a force...

I intend to kill a few units and pillage tiles. By removing some of his resources, I will most likely stop him from getting a religion and just slow him down in general. I can deny him a lot of yields by pillaging, especially those plantations which he upgraded with his pantheon. If I do choose to take Sao Paulo (I have a city state quest for it, 28 XP to all units), it will be a long war.

 

[Owlbebach]

I have not seen AI get all 5 religions by turn 80 in a long time. The only civ who founded before me was India. Also I already had 3 camps connected in my capital, plus I took the faith belief really early.

What turn did you found? In my game i founded last on turn 92 and that was because Monty screwed up his life. Though there was Spain, India and Arabia with Spirit of Desert

EDIT:
Taking Sao Paolo will be very hard if possible at all with all those Mountains.

 

[CrazyG]

Taking Sao Paolo will be very hard if possible at all with all those Mountains.

Oh ye of little faith.

 

[Owlbebach]

Oh ye of little faith.

Well it is possible if you attack from the upper-right side, where those two city-states are, but it will take like 15 turns to just move your army there and position it properly and timing is extremely important

 

[CrazyG]

We continue our story on turn 72.

Spoiler Part 2 :

We build the Hanging Gardens. This was quite a surprise to me, Maya has had mathematics for like 20 turns, but he build the Roman Forum instead. He also had the Pyramids so I had a feeling he wasn't going for another wonder.

I'm researching mining so I can build wells in two cities. After that I will research construction and masonry so that I can build arenas and a watermill.

I ally Bratislava soon, completing the artist quest and later completing a trade route quest. Culture allies are so good.

Now to the war. My pathfinder finished scouting and has returned safely. He has survivalism 3 and trailblazer 1, great unit for fighting in this area. He and an archer take a few shots at enemy warriors while my worker finishes that quarry. Meanwhile my horses go hunting. I do take out two archers, but the important thing is I pillage his horses. That horse in the center just keeps running between the two cities to make sure the horses don't get repaired. He also earns a few hundred gold for getting the caravans and steals a worker. I won't take any cities like this, but I'm hurting him while investing very little in the attack.

I build barracks and arenas in my cities. After that I build some skirmishers. My gold is being invested in the capital because it has so many things to build.

Turn 91 religion with Divine Inspiration (+20% to everything in holy city during golden ages) and Mastery. I thought about lots of different follower beliefs here, but I like the extra golden age points. I'm the second player to found.

After Masonry I research trade, build a trade route and send it to Bratislava. Markets are good but not a high prioirty.
Then Writing, build a scrivners office immediately, put the influence into bratislava (don't overlook the scrivner's office as a source of faith).
Then bronze working, improve iron and chop some trees (my workers were idle).
Fishing, sailing, then philosophy. Immediatley build Oracle in the capital, only three turns with investment and chopped trees.
500 science quickly gives me both drama and poetry, and education. I really want the university of sankore. Once again I invest and chop trees, 5 turn build time. sorry I didn't take pictures of either wonder.
I take artistry as my next social policy tree.

Then I take iron working for forges.
Then currency for villages. My other cities both build 1 more worker to help get villages build more quickly, then writers builds and amphitheaters. Don't invest in writer's guilds because you have +100% production towards them. Almost all gold is saved for the capital which has so many things to build. Caravansaries give truffles +2 gold, which makes them a good building in two of my cities.
I've planted an engineer and a scientist in the capital.

Maya pays me generously to declare war on Songhai, which I do. I was expecting a phony war but he actually sends a few units over. Mandekalu cavalry are terrifying, but I'm able to handle them. This terrain is really good for skirmishers and I have 6. My cities are building temples because I'm at my supply limit and my faith is low, I going to try and enhance before I build a missionary. This may have been a mistake, but mastery isn't that important in the secondary cities and I really wanted to get sainthood (but Maya takes it first).

I kill his great general and a skirmishers, two of the only threats Brazil has left. He briefly had horses and iron available, but I'm able to pillage the iron here. I manage to kill all the skirmishers and a single swordsman as well. Its nice to kill generals so that angry neighbors don't steal your land with citadels.

Next tech choices. Engineering to unlock Theology (aqueducts are good but I have so many things to build).
Theology is for Cathedral of St. Basil, Maya has already spread his religion a ton so I doubt I'll be able to reform normally.
Metal Casting to unlock physics. I don't have the manpower to build lumbermills yet but I will need to build some of them.
Physics to unlock the Hw'acha. These two techs also upgrade my great person tiles which is nice.

The key was not to attack the city, but instead to focus on killing all of Brazil's units while keeping strategic resources pillaged. Eventually I could easily and safely surround the city with skirmishers, stopping it from healing, and wear it down. Sao Paulo eventually falls, I get 28 XP for all units. I now have a horseman with march, a scout with medic II, and a skirmisher with parthian tactics. Sadly my golden age has ended though.

Something I do very rarely is demand tribute when tradition. However, I was able to get tribute from two merchant city states for a total of 500 production in the capital. Free wonder. I reform and take To the Glory of God (I also considered Jesuit Education).

 

[CrazyG]

I enhance my religion soon, what beliefs would you take?

 

[andersw]

Did you luck out with more horse than usual?
In some sense you atleast did with brazil as neighbour, one of the absolute weakest imo.
Cool with that Mayan settler in the t116 screenshot.

 

[Owlbebach]

I enhance my religion soon, what beliefs would you take?

First of all that depends on what is available, second you have Maya, who will not let you spread much,and Brazil has only one city. You do not have a lot of faith and you have small amount of cities thus Ritual, Scripture and Evangelism are out, so is Sainthood. You does not seem to have problems with happiness with such a small empire and Tradition, so you don't need happiness Enhancers either.
Apparently Tithes is the best belief for you, it also synergies with Glory of God.

However i do not understand Glory of God. Tradition Korea is nice for both Science and Tourism, you take Mastery and Divine, which is also good for both. You take Artistry and Glory of God, which are good for Tourism, but you are too low on faith for Glory of God. Maybe you should take Sacred Sites or Knowledge Through Devotion instead and take Resilience as an Enhancer?

As for the follower - maybe Mandirs, or Inspiration, or Ascetism. All three are good for Korea. Inspiration is just good for everyone.

 

[CrazyG]

Did you luck out with more horse than usual?

I have strategic balance on. 8 horses is a bit high given how low my supply cap is.

However i do not understand Glory of God. Tradition Korea is nice for both Science and Tourism, you take Mastery and Divine, which is also good for both. You take Artistry and Glory of God, which are good for Tourism, but you are too low on faith for Glory of God. Maybe you should take Sacred Sites or Knowledge Through Devotion instead and take Resilience as an Enhancer?

I think knowledge through devotion is just a weak belief compared to Sacred sites.
Sacred sites is only good I'm 100% going for a tourism victory, which I'm not, I might want science instead.
Glory of God is good for either. It gives me yields for great people too, I can probably spread a little bit and get like 30 yields per great person from it. That is pretty good. If I decide to kill Maya I'll have tons of faith.

Resilience is a poor man's sainthood, I don't like it.

 

[Owlbebach]

Resilience is a poor man's sainthood, I don't like it.

Resilence is great for Tourism as well. It gives additional 3 culture and 3 tourism to Holy Sites, culture converts into tourism and you'll have other stuff from them.

Knowledge Through Devotion is bad, i agree

 

[crdvis16]

Can you elaborate on the production problems in the capital? Is it an issue with tradition/artistry, the capital's tiles, or something else? Is the capital being used for military that maybe could be outsourced to the other cities? Could trade routes be used to boost the capital's food/production or are the trade routes too important going elsewhere?

Also, are you typically working all specialist slots in the capital the whole time or micromanaging slots at times? It's a tough balancing act between wanting great people and wanting to keep growing that I don't think I have a firm grasp on when playing tradition.

 

[CrazyG]

Can you elaborate on the production problems in the capital? Is it an issue with tradition/artistry, the capital's tiles, or something else? Is the capital being used for military that maybe could be outsourced to the other cities? Could trade routes be used to boost the capital's food/production or are the trade routes too important going elsewhere?

1. My science is really good, so I have tons of powerful buildings available
2. My capital builds wonders, which saps its production
3. I want all of the national wonders in the capital, which burdens its production
4. The capital works a lot of specialists, which lower production, other than engineers of course (and engineers aren't stronger than mines, even with mastery)
   
5. Edit: I actually build the Grand Temple in another city to help the capital out.

Also, are you typically working all specialist slots in the capital the whole time or micromanaging slots at times? It's a tough balancing act between wanting great people and wanting to keep growing that I don't think I have a firm grasp on when playing tradition.

Priorities go like this

1. Work the major food tiles. 4 citizens are locked onto my camps
2. Work Great People tiles. I have a manufactory, an academy, and a town. I'm letting another city work the town for now.
   
3. Work villages on trade routes.
4. Work other excellent tiles, such as iron or gold mines in this case.

Everyone else goes to specialists. I rotate them. For example right now I have 3 scientists, when the scientists is born I will move them to merchants, when the merchant is born I will move them to whatever the next great person is.

Resilence is great for Tourism as well. It gives additional 3 culture and 3 tourism to Holy Sites, culture converts into tourism and you'll have other stuff from them.

Knowledge Through Devotion is bad, i agree

How many holy sites am I going to get with 60 faith per turn?

Actually I didn't realize its +4 science for great person tiles with devotion, that isn't too bad. Korea can do something with that. My problem is what do I use the faith it gives me on? Great People? Why not just get glory of god if that is my plan? The Archeologists cost too much faith to be useful. I just really like Glory of God, having artists or writers on demand is very powerful.

 

[Owlbebach]

How many holy sites am I going to get with 60 faith per turn?

Well in my OCC game i already have 3 by turn 194... How many other Great People you get with it with Glory of God? Actually about as much.

The Archeologists cost too much faith to be useful. I just really like Glory of God, having artists or writers on demand is very powerful.

Archaeologists are crap, but in your case i think you should have choosen what victory do you want before that... For Tourism Sacred Sites would be better, for Science Jesuit Education would be better.

And by the way, if you play Science - you already have Tradition for Engineers and Rationalism for Scientists, do you really need to buy those Writers and Artists? And are you gonna have faith for them? I really question Glory of God in your case. Everything else was good, Glory of God to me was a mistake

 

[phantomaxl1207]

Archeologists are 550 btw or 200 . I would take Mandirs, the +10% is nice and Assassination protection is key.

 

[Legen]

Glory of God is useful, but you will likely have the people you need from policies alone, assuming you stay focused on SV. Given how much people were stating that they lacked production to keep their infrastructure on par with technology as Korea, I'd consider Jesuit Education, Faith of the Masses or Knowledge through Devotion. Seowon provides an extra 2 per turn, you'll probably have a decent faith output to spend on these new faith costs.

 

[CrazyG]

My savegame is crashing, not sure if I can continue it. I tried two earlier saves and they didn't work either.

I should have taken more time to think about my reformation belief. I auto-picked Glory of God because I was tradition, however the other beliefs have a lot of merit here, especially Jesuit Education (but not Sacred Sites, and with the posts so far that should be pretty obvious).