Korea?

[usi]

Wonderful!
I just added Korea and Byzantines in my OCC thread - they deserve to be equally important as other civs in RFC.

 

[Mxzs]

@AP: Yeah, that's the luckiest Korean game I've ever seen!

These are estimates only, based on possibly faulty memory, but to give you some notion of what I've seen during my 40-50 partial games while testing stuff out:

1. China did not build Great Wall, and collapsed under the weight of the barbs. Instead of DOWing on me, he DOW'd on Japan. Hangzhou flipped to me.

I think China gets the Great Wall less than 5% of the time, but even when it doesn't it collapses only about 10% of the time. More common (though not by much), they will lose Beijing. In all, I'd say you have to deal with a strong China in 4 out of every 5 games.

Never had a city flip to me. Wow.

2. I built Shenyang, and just as I was about to spread Taoism to it (never had state religion BTW), out of NOWHERE Christianity (AP religion) spread to me, so I had contact with the other AP civs. Which means I could exchange aesthetics/literature/music for a lot of the techs that I was missing. Bulbed philosophy which got me feudalism and machinery. I only researched paper and PP after that. (was even able to trade for engineering and guilds near the end with Ethiopia my buddy)

I think I had Xtianity spread once to one of my cities, and there was no AP attached. That said, in my typical games by the time I get Music and Alphabet I am pretty good friends with China, and can get tons of techs off of them, usually up to and including Machinery. Feudalism is harder to score, because it's often too expensive for the techs I've got on hand to trade.

I've not concentrated on making contact with the West in my games, but an early unit that used "free" barb attacks to score Woodsman II could probably get out there real quick. The path that got you to those techs so early is very rare, but the Woodsmen II technique probably could get you nearly the same thing. As the mod designer, I don't consider this an obviously good thing ...

3. Sanshan was never built by China (which would have crimped my coastal city)

Sanshan gets built about 70% of the time, I'd say: more common than not, but not so common that you it's a surprise when the place is empty. When I don't have Sanshan to develop, I usually have to settle for Fuyori (??), 4 squares north and 1 square east of ... what is that, Changan on your map? Your other big Manchurian city, the one with Q, is one I almost always build.

Can you tell me what turn you built a third city in Manchuria and what turn you built the Pagoda? I presume you got Printing Press in 1220. It would help me figure out how to tighten the deadlines. Also, I'd welcome any other ideas you have for making it more challenging. I chose these UHVs not because they were easy, but because they were historically suggestive.

Any technical problems I should know about?

 

[AnotherPacifist]

As soon as Seoul got to size 4 (i.e. working all the food tiles without calendar), I started a settler, so I built the one on the eastern coast first (since Japan likes it and it was probably the reason he DOW'd on me), so it was built way before 600 AD. Qiqihaer I built around 800 AD or so. I had built temples all around long before I got music, and the Taoist Pagoda was whipped in Seoul around 1000 AD (might be a little earlier).

I would suggest making the 4 cities by 900 AD (right now the criterion is a IN rather than BY criterion), and making the cathedral goal by 1200 at the latest. It would be interesting to delay the game till modern times so maybe put it a modern tech like superconductors or computers for the 3rd criteria.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Just a stupid question: why did you leave out the Liaodong Peninsula (1 south of the wheat) as an area of control?

 

[AnotherPacifist]

1. Send a swordsman by the shortest route towards Europe (can't guarantee spread of Christianity to me). If you get free barb wins promote towards woodsman (it's hard but not impossible to get woodsman2).
2. Research path: sailing, math, calendar, aesthetics, literature, music, machinery (partly), paper, PP. No need to use great scientist to bulb alphabet since Euros will trade it to you cheaply after 600 AD, use him for an academy in Seoul. The main realization that you need "peaceful" techs to exchange for important/expensive techs, and at least in this patch research is expensive enough that nobody is going to build the wonders in time which makes the peaceful techs worth much more. (In my game neither the Sistine Chapel, Parthenon, Great Library or Leaning Tower were built)
3. If China has built Sanshan, reload. You really need a city west of the Liao river (either you build Sanshan or Sinuiju) to work the iron).
4. If you're first to music, you can us it to get more space in Manchuria (Changchun got the 4000 culture points).
5. No wonders at all.
6. Defend only if China or Japan declares war (which they both did at some time)
7. Befriend Euros with whatever means--you need to trade for priesthood, currency, metal casting, machinery, theology (prereq to paper). Feudalism is not necessary but nice to get.

I wonder why you give horseback riding to the Koreans? There's no horse around. I just use it for making peace with Japan. I would give the Koreans priesthood instead--more true to life anyway.

 

[Mxzs]

Liaodong? Technical incompetence, hopefully temporary. Manchuria's borders are defined by a rectangle; it is possible to define them with an irregular shape using an Exceptions section, but I hadn't (yet, I hope) figured out how to use that section. If the Manchurian square included Liaodong, it would include Kaesong (which is that primo middle square that can act as a canal). If the player built at Kaesong when it was inside Manchuria, then the one "Korean" city would also be a Manchurian city, making things even easier. So, because I wanted to upload what I had without waiting for the final polish, I just left Liaodong off as a side effect of keeping Kaesong out of the "Manchuria" area.

in the final final version, I want Liaodong included in Manchuria, yes.

On the four cities criterion, too, if "IN" is a problem, then I think I may need help with the code. IIRC, that Victory UP is copied directly off of Rome's. Or someone's. It cost me a lot of false starts and game crashes to get that Victory condition written, and I'm not sure I know how to change it.

Now a stupid question for you: You built 4 by 800 AD, and your technology progress didn't hit a wall? Maybe I haven't experimented that hard with building cities early, but I've always found my research rate slowing to nearly zero once I've got four cities built.

EDIT: Well, that's quite a bit different from my usual strategy, but my usual strategy perforce includes a Chinese Sanshan. You can get the Iron if you build Kimchaek (one tile northeast of the Iron. When did you get Iron Working, btw? From the Euros? Dicey proposition, IMO, but maybe I'm just a coward. Because Korea is the fluffly little pancake between the Japanese hammer and the Chinese anvil, I like to butch up as fast as possible.

Well, the UHVs are definitely too easy. Hmmm.

Oh, I gave them Horseback Riding because I read somewhere that they are descendents of a horse-riding culture, but lost the art. Kind of an in-joke, in a way. I didn't give them Priesthood, in the (vain) hope that one more speed bump couldn't hurt.

 

[Zagoroth]

I believe I was the one to first suggest horse archery, and I still stand by it! Maybe we could replace a deer in the Korean peninsula with horses? If Korea gains a city south of the wheat they can also fight for the horses one north and two west of that city, at least I think those are horses.

 

[TDK]

Very nice Mxzs, I'm looking forward to trying it out.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

How about making it 4 cities in Manchuria, but include Liaodung and the 1 Korean city that counts as a Manchurian city?
Interestingly, I think having 3 cities is the perfect rate for science, but I just can't leave the north up for the barbs to have access to me, so I usually build a frontier city. As long as you use scientists and merchants you won't really suffer that much hit in science.
I did not research iron working. It's very cheap to buy from the Euros (almost everybody has it, including the Romans by the time you reach them) once you have the aesthetic line. If you play it right you won't have any serious military threats from Japan or China till the time you're ready to take them on (i.e. when you trade for iron working).

If you're worried the UHV's too easy, remember there's emperor which I haven't tried yet. Greece (or Rome) will definitely get PP if they are alive in emperor. Maybe just make the first 2 UHVs 100 years earlier for each. You should definitely try to extend the timeline later so that there's more point playing later.

 

[Mxzs]

If I get the code figured out (I'm hoping it won't be too hard) I will include Liaodong in an update, but I don't want to include any nominally Korean cities.

I worry about extending the playing time past PP; it could get stale for the player. To my mind, it would be a bit like being forced to play Egypt until the Turks spawn. There could be some excitement if there are wars, but it could also be just a lot of waiting and clicking.

 

[Kizuna.Zero]

DLing it now. I'll give you feedbacks once I finish a game with this :9

(1) Kubokson beats hwacha; many of my Korean acquaintances had never even heard of the latter, but the former is hugely famous.

I just had to laugh at this statement; it just reflects the fact that most Koreans know nothing of their own history, or their own culture, as a matter of fact.
But they probably know the damn thing, they just know it as Shinkichon or "신기전," which actually is the name for the rockets the hwacha fires.

I don't know if the turtle ship should be Korean UU... in my opinion, Hwachas are much better for one. Although turtle ships were in existence(at least conceptual designs were) before the time of Adm. Yi, they saw no widespread use. They were used with great effect by the Admiral, yes, but after the war ended, they fell into disuse. Moreover, only a handful of them were ever built, and most of them were built during the Japanese invasion of the peninsula.

Still, the turtle ship is immortalized alongside Admiral Yi among the Koreans. They sure love to see the thing appear in games and other mass medias(I think I do like seeing them too... regardless of what I say >_>).

And as for Seowon, I think it is not a very scientific institution. It should replace Library rather than a university, and +4 culture like Madrassa rather than a 35% science rate, as what they studied there were ancient Confucian classics which, by the way, in no way helped the people.
Out of a handful of inventions that we can claim as our own, none was the work of those sitting in the rooms of Seowons. They were the works of artisans and craftsmen who actually sought ways to better the lives of the people.

 

[Kizuna.Zero]

For an odd reason, my old reply was not posted at all.
So I'll write it again:

Kubokson beats hwacha; many of my Korean acquaintances had never even heard of the latter, but the former is hugely famous.

This is because the education system in Korea totally disregards the details of history or whatsoever. Look in a Korean history textbook(which are printed by the gov't, btw), and you will find something like this printed in huge <censored> letters: "OUR NEIGHBORS THE CHINKS AND THE JAPS ARE DICKS AND HAVE BEEN OPPRESSING US FOR NO REASON THAT WE QUITE UNDERSTAND; IT IS BECAUSE OF THEM THAT OUR GREAT COUNTRY HAS BEEN SCREWED SINCE TIME IMMEMORIAL."

Anyways, that's not important.
Many Koreans do not know the name for the damn cart from which the rockets are launched from, but I'm sure more know about the Singijeon(&#49888;&#44592;&#51204, the rocket-arrows that the hwacha can launch. They just don't know the name for the launchers.

And I would say hwachas make a better UU than the turtle ship for the following reasons:

the hwacha saw more widespread and prolonged use in the Korean military than the kobukson.
the turtle ships, although in existence at least conceptually before Adm. Yi's time, it was he who really materialized the ship and used it. Joseon navies before and after him did not, and after the war was over, they fell into disuse rather quickly(not a lot of them were left anyways, as they've been lost while the Admiral was under arrest).
on the contrary, the hwacha saw widespread use not only during the Japanese invasion of the peninsula, but before and after the invasion against other enemies.

the turtle ships were also much more expensive, and were not produced in any significant numbers.
hwachas on the other hand, have been in use since 1451, when it was produced in massive numbers under decree of King Munjong.

 

[Kizuna.Zero]

and some thoughts:

did you make it so that all Europeans civs have access to Carracks? I'm in the late 16th C and I keep seeing European Carracks ferrying settlers across the Atlantic.
in addition, I keep finding a random ground unit standing on the coast tile(lol) adjacent to one of the coastal city. I've never seen this before, so it's kinda funny. There was also a barbarian East Indiaman spawning in the Indian ocean, I think it's supposed to be a Privateer. Your Unit XML may have been screwed up. Do a check for it.

I also found that the Koreans spawn on the same year as the Mayans and have the same techs. I'm not too sure if that's acceptable regarding actual history, but it could just be me.
Still, Koreans should spawn around the time the Japanese do, if not earlier, with appropriate techs.

that's the thing I've to say so far. I kinda miss the Mayans(on second thought, not really, I usually don't even get to meet them--the barbs eat them alive almost every time), but it is nice to see a more complicated complexion in East Asia.

 

[otomik_]

"OUR NEIGHBORS THE CHINKS AND THE JAPS ARE DICKS AND HAVE BEEN OPPRESSING US FOR NO REASON THAT WE QUITE UNDERSTAND; IT IS BECAUSE OF THEM THAT OUR GREAT COUNTRY HAS BEEN SCREWED SINCE TIME IMMEMORIAL."

or in a word, Han/&#54620;/&#24680;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_(cultural)

Han is a concept in Korean culture, attributed by some as a national cultural trait. Han denotes a collective feeling of oppression and isolation in the face of overwhelming odds. It connotes aspects of lament and unavenged injustice.

i'll have to try this mod out, I used to play as korea in OCC back on the old vanilla earth map by moving a renamed genghis to korea. though it's not something they're proud about the east coast of korea had a lot of pirate activity (another similarity to the old if japan is england, korea is ireland comparison). the turtle ship and hooking up horses for some vicious chollima mounted units sounds like a good way to keep your powerful neighbors weak through pillaging.

would be nice if the map featured jeju island

 

[otomik_]

okay got it 1220AD.
Seoul becomes such a research powerhouse with a library, bureaucracy, seowon and all those money bags of calendar resources it was a shame to research the printing press so quickly and void koreas unique trait. probably best to wait until the last moment. I would prefer another goal, the claim is spurious and puts korea in a weaker state if one plans to continue. I liked building the stupa researching music gave my the great artist that composed the masterpiece Ariyang and firmly established korean culture around shenyang.

 

[corovanrobber]

What about city name maps? Should Chinese cities be renamed in accordance with hanja readings when captured, e.g. Beijing > Bukgyeong? And how would be Japanese cities renamed?

 

[Kizuna.Zero]

what i wanted to point out is that their history books are extremely biased.
yes, I do believe that it is important for everyone to take pride in their heritage, their nation and its culture, but I don't believe that injecting biased opinion into the next generation will do much to better Korea's place in East Asia... but my people do seem to enjoy masturbating by claiming that they are, by nature, "superior" people to... pretty much everyone else. but at the same time, they are just suffering from inferiority complex most of the time.
that was just what I think about the general attitude of Koreans towards history, themselves and their neighbors. completely irrelevant to this thread, by the way. (scolds self)

would be nice if the map featured jeju island

though the map's far too small. even the Ryukyus are only represented by a single grassland tile..

What about city name maps? Should Chinese cities be renamed in accordance with hanja readings when captured, e.g. Beijing > Bukgyeong? And how would be Japanese cities renamed?

Chinese cities, when captured by Japan, are renamed to Japanese readings, if I remember correctly. I guess the same should go for the Korean conquerors(if that's even possible), though that sounds like a burdensome workload.

and I still am convinced that hwachas make a better UU than the turtle ships, for the reason ive stated above ;o