I agree with this statement. In general I think there are many different options to buff Korea a bit. I think the most important point I want to make is that I genuinely believe Korea is underpowered (in Human hands) compared to other Tradition Civs I have played. So either I am wrong and need to learn to play Korea better or Korea could use some small buffs.
Korea
- Thread starter Der_Zorn_gottes
- Start date
Okay, I guess.
Well, what is the biggest issue with Korea, from people experience?
I would say, no to any faith boosts. There are already way too many faith civs, even without including modded extra civs, and it is kinda the go-to buff.
That leaves
Food
Production
Culture
Of them, honestly, I don't find culture that much of an issue. It is probably the least needed buff of them. If you are having major cultural issues as a Tradition civ, you either overexpanded or didn't work the cultural specialists. Which you have an extra reason to work as Korea since the Seowon gives a boost to great works.
I think it is probably better to have something to do with farms. I know very little about Korean history, but key parts of Sejong's reforms were agricultural, and the spreading of Hangul was primarily for the lower class, primarily agricultural, not the nobility/specialists.
So perhaps, a food bonus (either all the time or one that only operates on golden ages) could be attached to the Seowon (so about the time of reforming).
Or a simple 1 production on farms.
Well, what is the biggest issue with Korea, from people experience?
I would say, no to any faith boosts. There are already way too many faith civs, even without including modded extra civs, and it is kinda the go-to buff.
That leaves
Food
Production
Culture
Of them, honestly, I don't find culture that much of an issue. It is probably the least needed buff of them. If you are having major cultural issues as a Tradition civ, you either overexpanded or didn't work the cultural specialists. Which you have an extra reason to work as Korea since the Seowon gives a boost to great works.
I think it is probably better to have something to do with farms. I know very little about Korean history, but key parts of Sejong's reforms were agricultural, and the spreading of Hangul was primarily for the lower class, primarily agricultural, not the nobility/specialists.
So perhaps, a food bonus (either all the time or one that only operates on golden ages) could be attached to the Seowon (so about the time of reforming).
Or a simple 1 production on farms.
This is how I view Korea when playing a tall, defensive, tradition game for a science victory. Korea also would be quite good at tourism victory except it's just not a good strategy these days.
First, H'wacha are amazing but situational. The hardest time to defend is the ancient and classical era. They can't help, and catapults are expensive and awkward. From medieval onwards I'm usually able to defend myself with just vanilla units, no UU needed. So while it's a strong bonus, it's sometimes not necessary. Generally you either defend or don't, and you can defend without h'wacha. So it's great if you start next to Zulu or Sweden but otherwise not important.
Second, religion. I think every tradition game wants the same founder and enhancer beliefs. Korea looks like it would want Divine Inheritance, but Apostolic Tradition is still easily the better choice. Playing tradition with and without that belief is just a world of difference. Symbolism is the best enhancer as tradition, I think that's just always true regardless of your civ or strategy.
I think if you look at the basic tradition shell, which has the above two beliefs, the tools Korea adds just aren't great (Maya, Arabia, or Babylon's bonuses complement it a lot more).
Then there's golden ages. Anyone with tradition, artistry and freedom can spend the entire late game in golden ages quiet easily. If you take order and miss all of the golden age wonders, it's not infinite, but it's still pretty consistent. I already find Korea's extra points pretty superfluous, I don't extra points on great people would really help much.
If you are adding something I'd add culture. Not a farm bonus, my last Korea game had 0 farms outside the capital. My growth came from trade routes or Apostolic tradition. Non-specialist citizens were primarily working mines for the production I desperately need. Fealty would be really nice as Korea but I can't give up the synergies within artistry.
First, H'wacha are amazing but situational. The hardest time to defend is the ancient and classical era. They can't help, and catapults are expensive and awkward. From medieval onwards I'm usually able to defend myself with just vanilla units, no UU needed. So while it's a strong bonus, it's sometimes not necessary. Generally you either defend or don't, and you can defend without h'wacha. So it's great if you start next to Zulu or Sweden but otherwise not important.
Second, religion. I think every tradition game wants the same founder and enhancer beliefs. Korea looks like it would want Divine Inheritance, but Apostolic Tradition is still easily the better choice. Playing tradition with and without that belief is just a world of difference. Symbolism is the best enhancer as tradition, I think that's just always true regardless of your civ or strategy.
I think if you look at the basic tradition shell, which has the above two beliefs, the tools Korea adds just aren't great (Maya, Arabia, or Babylon's bonuses complement it a lot more).
Then there's golden ages. Anyone with tradition, artistry and freedom can spend the entire late game in golden ages quiet easily. If you take order and miss all of the golden age wonders, it's not infinite, but it's still pretty consistent. I already find Korea's extra points pretty superfluous, I don't extra points on great people would really help much.
If you are adding something I'd add culture. Not a farm bonus, my last Korea game had 0 farms outside the capital. My growth came from trade routes or Apostolic tradition. Non-specialist citizens were primarily working mines for the production I desperately need. Fealty would be really nice as Korea but I can't give up the synergies within artistry.
pineappledan
Deity
As some have pointed out before, universities aren’t particularly strong as a base building. So, if a buff were to come to Korea, I would bring one in the form of a buff to all Universities, and bring the base UB up a notch.
It's probably not a popular opinion but I wouldn't mind the H'wacha being replaced by a Unique improvement or a Unique National Wonder.
I did try Korea with Divine Inheritance a couple of times. And even with longer Golden ages due to monopoly, artistry and (sometimes) Chichen Itza it didn't feel powerfull enough. If DI is unimpressive even for Korea is it still good enough than? I remember it used to be 30%. I never understood the nerf to 20% in the first place but this is definitely something to look at.
So you agree that Korea needs a buff...
I agree... I also agree with @Drakle that there are enough civs with unique faith bonusses. So that leaves culture, food and production or something related to specialist/golden ages. I'm not sure what is best but I do believe Korea could use a decent buff.
LifeOfBrian
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I'll stand with my opinion that Korea doesn't need a buff, it's already very strong. If other civs (Arabia, Babylon, Maya, Egypt,...) are much stronger, those could/should be nerfed instead to prevent "yield inflation" with civs' uniques.
Divine Inheritance is still insanely strong.
I think Korea has enough culture, but not enough gold/production to keep up with infrastructure. Maybe instead of going full Tradition/Artistry/Freedom you can skip one of them and still get enough GAP for perma golden age, instead of having overflowing GAP in the entire mid-late game.
I think Korea has enough culture, but not enough gold/production to keep up with infrastructure. Maybe instead of going full Tradition/Artistry/Freedom you can skip one of them and still get enough GAP for perma golden age, instead of having overflowing GAP in the entire mid-late game.
Is it actually unimpressive? As Korea, you can stack a lot of Science Golden age modifiers
20% from School of Philosophy
20% from DI
15% from Seowon
A 55% Science modifier just from Golden ages, in the capital is nothing to sniff at. Considering the number of specialists it will be working, and academy tiles the capital can produce insane amounts of science by itself. And 20% to every yield, on top of the 20% culture and Production and gold on lots of tiles. If you grab Mosques/Tradition Wonder there is also a 15% extra culture.
Divine Inheritances is best with a powerful capital, and few cities to dilute it. And is almost the go-to choice for an OCC.
The difference might be that its yields are a bit more under the hood, while others give instant yields.
We clearly disagree on this one than. I managed to win Deity victories with Arabia, Austria, Portugal, Ottoman and India but have so far failed with Korea. I also disagree about the "yield inflation" of civs Uniques. I think it is nice if Civs have strong uniques. It adds to the "new feel" when you play a different civ instead of just playing the same old over and over again with a minor buff here or there.
Maybe I am underestimating it... But I thought it a bit mediocre.
I think Korea's science is great. I do think that she lacks pretty much everything else though. Culture is always at least ok-ish when playing tradition but Korea has worse Culture than a lot of other "tradition-civs" and also has practically no bonusses to food and production. It gets the science but can't benefit from it due to lack of production, food and policies is my oppinion so far.
LifeOfBrian
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Ninal, I guess we do disagree 
I can more often than not win on Deity with Korea, it's got a great kit for either staying small (Tradition) or going Progress-Artistry-Rationalism wide with the help of Hwatchas, they make grabbing 3-4 cities from a nearby civ quite easy, then transitioning to a SV victory. The recent changes where it's much easier to get a religion on Deity even without a faith civ opened up a lot of new strategies. Korea with its unique blend of encouraging specialists and having an OP UU is one of the most interesting civs in the game that can be played to victory with numerous different strategies, unlike for example Arabia which is pigeonholed into SV/CV tradition-artistry.
I can more often than not win on Deity with Korea, it's got a great kit for either staying small (Tradition) or going Progress-Artistry-Rationalism wide with the help of Hwatchas, they make grabbing 3-4 cities from a nearby civ quite easy, then transitioning to a SV victory. The recent changes where it's much easier to get a religion on Deity even without a faith civ opened up a lot of new strategies. Korea with its unique blend of encouraging specialists and having an OP UU is one of the most interesting civs in the game that can be played to victory with numerous different strategies, unlike for example Arabia which is pigeonholed into SV/CV tradition-artistry.I'm really interested to hear more on your approach to Korea if you are so succesfull with her. I clearly haven't tried the Progress-Artistry-Rationalism route. I have tried the "traditional" tradition-artistry route and found it lacking. Maybe I under-used the unique unit but I had no trouble defending myself without it. It's just that besides the science (which is great) I found Korea having problems with generating enough food, production and culture to win.
I do agree that it is a bit easier to get a religion and that it is a great boon for tradition-korea!
I do agree that it is a bit easier to get a religion and that it is a great boon for tradition-korea!
Korea is a shoe in for industry. They have little benefit from even more science. Industry gives them the tools to catch up on production. And a lot more powerful specialists with production, allowing fewer non specialists needed. If you won't take Industry with science focus civs like Korea and Babylon, you must just never use it, despite its clear benefits.
LifeOfBrian
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Drakle, if I'm going for a SV, I'll always pick rationalism, especially as Korea, because:
- specialists consume less food
- more food/growth due to the finisher
- more yields from great scientists
- ability to purchase great scientists
I'll only consider using industry when I'm not going for a SV.
Ninal, to me the key to non-tradition/expansionist Korea is to beeline Steel/Hwachas and then spam at least 5 or 6 Hwachas. I'll then declare war either on a neighbouring AI or on a nearby CS and use my Hwachas safely so they quickly get the range promotion (only two promotions needed if built with armories) and one or two with indirect fire. I'll then slowly move them on the offensive with cheap melee units as a shield and just rain havoc on enemy units and cities. 5 Hwachas and 7 melee units are more than enough to start steamrolling on the offensive and even if the going is a bit slower at first, time works in your favour because your Hwachas will keep on gaining experience and promotions (range, indirect fire, siege volley) that will make them deadly. I can't stress enough how strong they are. If you wanted, you could go for a domination victory as Korea instead.
But if you want a peaceful SV, use your expanded empire to have lots more benefits from your religion. I usually don't get enough faith to be among the first founders, so I never get to pick divine inheritance, but more often than not Way of the pilgrim is available. In that case I'll usually pick Mandirs and Mosques or Churches, giving me extra food, culture and faith (because I'll have so many cities) and I'll use that faith to spam missionaries and send them to the civs with the most foreign followers. I'll intentionally weaken my missionaries with attrition so by the time they get near to Thebes or some other big city they'll only have 500 or even only 250 strength, meaning that when I spread with them, they'll have a miniscule increase of my followers, allowing me to get more culture from them. If way of the pilgrim isn't available, I'll try to get churches and orthodoxy to couple with Holy Law). Later on, I'll use the extra faith to purchase great scientists and great writers (timed with my GAs and World fair), meaning even more culture. I'll also use my trade routes almost exclusively for internal routes. I won't be working many specialists until the industrial era or later on, allowing me to have my cities grow and produce more until then. Even on Deity you're in no rush to catch up with the AI quickly, I'll usually overtake the leader(s) in the Atomic era, when I put all my specialists to scientists slots and then spamming great scientists. Later on you don't need that many units to defend because your hwachas (cannons/field guns) are so promoted they'll be great for defending. I also avoid settling coastal cities as Korea to help me reduce the number of needed units. I'll take Order as its the best for a peaceful SV, taking Iron Curtain and great leap forward as my T3 tenets.
So to summarize (in chronological order)
- settle 5 or 6 cities as Progress Korea,
- get Religion (preferably Way of the Pilgrim or Holy Law),
- get Mandirs (for food and protection of specialists) and either churches or mosques
- don't chop forests or jungles (later on great for science, culture and gold)
- more or less ignore merchant and engineer specialists, focus early on cultural specialists, later on focus on scientist specialists
- use internal routes when possible,
- spam Armory-built Hwachas
- use them defensively to get them to range/indirect promotions
- conquer 4 or 5 cities
- use your new cities to reform your religion
- use pilgrim and/or faith-purchased great writers and hidden antiquity sites to accumulate culture
- ignore most wonders (the key ones later on are basically only Motherland calls, Hubble and Cern) and focus on keeping your infrastructure up to date
- use great scientists later on to beeline for hubble
- time your great scientists with your specialists and science processes (5 turns of all cities working on science before your GS is born)
If you have any questions, feel free to ask. If you want, you can start a game with Korea and post a starting save and we can play each our version so we can compare.
- specialists consume less food
- more food/growth due to the finisher
- more yields from great scientists
- ability to purchase great scientists
I'll only consider using industry when I'm not going for a SV.
Ninal, to me the key to non-tradition/expansionist Korea is to beeline Steel/Hwachas and then spam at least 5 or 6 Hwachas. I'll then declare war either on a neighbouring AI or on a nearby CS and use my Hwachas safely so they quickly get the range promotion (only two promotions needed if built with armories) and one or two with indirect fire. I'll then slowly move them on the offensive with cheap melee units as a shield and just rain havoc on enemy units and cities. 5 Hwachas and 7 melee units are more than enough to start steamrolling on the offensive and even if the going is a bit slower at first, time works in your favour because your Hwachas will keep on gaining experience and promotions (range, indirect fire, siege volley) that will make them deadly. I can't stress enough how strong they are. If you wanted, you could go for a domination victory as Korea instead.
But if you want a peaceful SV, use your expanded empire to have lots more benefits from your religion. I usually don't get enough faith to be among the first founders, so I never get to pick divine inheritance, but more often than not Way of the pilgrim is available. In that case I'll usually pick Mandirs and Mosques or Churches, giving me extra food, culture and faith (because I'll have so many cities) and I'll use that faith to spam missionaries and send them to the civs with the most foreign followers. I'll intentionally weaken my missionaries with attrition so by the time they get near to Thebes or some other big city they'll only have 500 or even only 250 strength, meaning that when I spread with them, they'll have a miniscule increase of my followers, allowing me to get more culture from them. If way of the pilgrim isn't available, I'll try to get churches and orthodoxy to couple with Holy Law). Later on, I'll use the extra faith to purchase great scientists and great writers (timed with my GAs and World fair), meaning even more culture. I'll also use my trade routes almost exclusively for internal routes. I won't be working many specialists until the industrial era or later on, allowing me to have my cities grow and produce more until then. Even on Deity you're in no rush to catch up with the AI quickly, I'll usually overtake the leader(s) in the Atomic era, when I put all my specialists to scientists slots and then spamming great scientists. Later on you don't need that many units to defend because your hwachas (cannons/field guns) are so promoted they'll be great for defending. I also avoid settling coastal cities as Korea to help me reduce the number of needed units. I'll take Order as its the best for a peaceful SV, taking Iron Curtain and great leap forward as my T3 tenets.
So to summarize (in chronological order)
- settle 5 or 6 cities as Progress Korea,
- get Religion (preferably Way of the Pilgrim or Holy Law),
- get Mandirs (for food and protection of specialists) and either churches or mosques
- don't chop forests or jungles (later on great for science, culture and gold)
- more or less ignore merchant and engineer specialists, focus early on cultural specialists, later on focus on scientist specialists
- use internal routes when possible,
- spam Armory-built Hwachas
- use them defensively to get them to range/indirect promotions
- conquer 4 or 5 cities
- use your new cities to reform your religion
- use pilgrim and/or faith-purchased great writers and hidden antiquity sites to accumulate culture
- ignore most wonders (the key ones later on are basically only Motherland calls, Hubble and Cern) and focus on keeping your infrastructure up to date
- use great scientists later on to beeline for hubble
- time your great scientists with your specialists and science processes (5 turns of all cities working on science before your GS is born)
If you have any questions, feel free to ask. If you want, you can start a game with Korea and post a starting save and we can play each our version so we can compare.
Hi @LifeOfBrian thanks for the very detailed answer. It is apreciated!
Maybe the problem has been that I haven't used the Hwachas enough. I have been trying to play as a 4-5 city peacefull tradition Civ going for a Science Victory. Do you believe that path to victory is unfeasable or at least less competitive? My reasoning was that Tradition normally works best in a small empire. You need less culture for policies and less science for tech. I went with Divine Inheritance because you already want to be in golden Ages and with Ascetisism for the extra food per follower. Otherwise it is so hard to even work your specialist slots at all. Maybe I used specialists to early? I later added Mandirs. Normally when i go for a smaller Tradition empire I pick non-building follower beliefs because I normally do not have that much faith to spare...
Really wondering if your style of Korea play also works for a smaller Tradition empire in a peacefull setting or that offensive wars with your UU is more or less mandatory in your approach.
Maybe the problem has been that I haven't used the Hwachas enough. I have been trying to play as a 4-5 city peacefull tradition Civ going for a Science Victory. Do you believe that path to victory is unfeasable or at least less competitive? My reasoning was that Tradition normally works best in a small empire. You need less culture for policies and less science for tech. I went with Divine Inheritance because you already want to be in golden Ages and with Ascetisism for the extra food per follower. Otherwise it is so hard to even work your specialist slots at all. Maybe I used specialists to early? I later added Mandirs. Normally when i go for a smaller Tradition empire I pick non-building follower beliefs because I normally do not have that much faith to spare...
Really wondering if your style of Korea play also works for a smaller Tradition empire in a peacefull setting or that offensive wars with your UU is more or less mandatory in your approach.
I knew most tricks you mentioned... this one is new to me... Will try it out soon
LifeOfBrian
King
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- 757
Thanks for the kind reply, glad you found out a new trick - the same also applies to culture process and great writers My experience is that 5 city tradition Korea is very competitive unless you have a runaway AI like a 7 city tradition Siam/Babylon or a 20 city Askia threatening to pull ahead too much to overcome. But that's a problem with all tradition/peaceful games - you might get beaten by a runaway AI you have no way of stopping peacefully. That's why I prefer playing as Progress with a strong army, as I have more chance of stopping a runaway (or becoming one myself via conquering). The thing is I usually manually select my AI opponents to be very strong (Askia, Siam, Arabia,...) so I always have to take into account the chance of one of them snowballing.
I'd also recommend you select at least one building follower because you want to have enough faith to buy at least 4 great scientists in the atomic/information era. But still, I'd rather pick way of the pilgrim and 2 buildings over divine inheritance because it's just so strong. I recommend you try a game and when you'll be about to found a religion, save the game and then try one version where you pick way of the pilgrim and one where you don't. Oh, almost forgot - when you pick Way of the Pilgrim, select the Fealty opener and then move to the Artistry tree. Leave the last policy (the one with a free GP) locked until you're in the industrial/modern era and the world fair has passed - then you go for a combination of world fair culture bonus, golden age bonus and culture process for 5 turns, then you faith-buy a great writer, pop it, then unlock the last Aristry policy for yet another great writer for oodless of culture. And don't give up open borders to other AIs so they can't rob you of your antiquity sites.
My experience is that 5 city tradition Korea is very competitive unless you have a runaway AI like a 7 city tradition Siam/Babylon or a 20 city Askia threatening to pull ahead too much to overcome. But that's a problem with all tradition/peaceful games - you might get beaten by a runaway AI you have no way of stopping peacefully. That's why I prefer playing as Progress with a strong army, as I have more chance of stopping a runaway (or becoming one myself via conquering). The thing is I usually manually select my AI opponents to be very strong (Askia, Siam, Arabia,...) so I always have to take into account the chance of one of them snowballing. I'd also recommend you select at least one building follower because you want to have enough faith to buy at least 4 great scientists in the atomic/information era. But still, I'd rather pick way of the pilgrim and 2 buildings over divine inheritance because it's just so strong. I recommend you try a game and when you'll be about to found a religion, save the game and then try one version where you pick way of the pilgrim and one where you don't. Oh, almost forgot - when you pick Way of the Pilgrim, select the Fealty opener and then move to the Artistry tree. Leave the last policy (the one with a free GP) locked until you're in the industrial/modern era and the world fair has passed - then you go for a combination of world fair culture bonus, golden age bonus and culture process for 5 turns, then you faith-buy a great writer, pop it, then unlock the last Aristry policy for yet another great writer for oodless of culture. And don't give up open borders to other AIs so they can't rob you of your antiquity sites.
Thanks for the kind reply, glad you found out a new trick - the same also applies to culture process and great writers
I'd also recommend you select at least one building follower because you want to have enough faith to buy at least 4 great scientists in the atomic/information era. But still, I'd rather pick way of the pilgrim and 2 buildings over divine inheritance because it's just so strong. I recommend you try a game and when you'll be about to found a religion, save the game and then try one version where you pick way of the pilgrim and one where you don't. Oh, almost forgot - when you pick Way of the Pilgrim, select the Fealty opener and then move to the Artistry tree. Leave the last policy (the one with a free GP) locked until you're in the industrial/modern era and the world fair has passed - then you go for a combination of world fair culture bonus, golden age bonus and culture process for 5 turns, then you faith-buy a great writer, pop it, then unlock the last Aristry policy for yet another great writer for oodless of culture. And don't give up open borders to other AIs so they can't rob you of your antiquity sites.
The Way of the Pilgrim + Fealty opener combo is the strongest culture combination in the early game. I comboed it with orders, mosques, and a Progress / Artistry / Rationalism / Order Korea for a turn 311 science win on deity. Pantheon was goddess of the hunt, which helped with early game culture.
I settled 8 cities with Progress and then used Hwachas to conquer another 9 cities, including taking 1 vassal. Since I had a food corporation monopoly, I annexed all of them since happiness wasn't an issue. I ended the game about 15 techs ahead of everyone.
I do not think that Korea needs a buff.
As far as wonders go, the only wonders that are really needed are wonders that help improve culture. If it doesn't help improve culture, its not worth the hammers usually.
The trick is to never use a missionary to convert the city to your religion or to cause it to not have their religion as a majority religion. The AI never objects then.
pineappledan
Deity
My opinion on Korea is not that they are overpowered/underpowered, but rather that their Seowon in particular is severely lacking, both in flavor and meaningful gameplay impact.
Spoiler my thoughts :
Spoiler Proposed change :
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Proposed change
Old Seowon
unlocked at Philosophy
32
+15%Golden Ages
+1
+50% of the city'scitizen is born
+1Great Works
New Seowon
unlocked at Education
3
+1
+50% of the city's
+3to Academies if they are not adjacent to a City
+1
[/SPOILER]
On a thematic level, I agree that what you propose makes more sense. However, on a gameplay perspective, I don't think it brings something interesting to the table.
Korea is a civ with a distinctly high focus on specialist and GA, not on infrastructure : there is no UI nor UU in its kit that incentivize being mindful of Improvement placement, and thus, having a bonus for not placing your Academics next to your cities only means not being forgetful when doing so. Basically, there is no gameplay tension here (no choice to make, no synergy to use).
This doesn't mean that I have the automatic answer for that problem. Maybe two ways to make that new Seowon work ?
- First, keep this new Seowon as it is, but change the Hwach'a. Make the UU a unit that gets better on GPTI instead of simply being a "great future cannon" (I like the current tendency to eliminate double attacks as much as possible for UUs anyway). The Hwach'a being an invention made specifically by great Korean savants, having a synergy with GPTI would make sense thematically, and also would allow Korea to be the only civ incentivized to use non-military GPTI as military tools (and so put them a bit closer to frontlines, which is usually where you don't want to put them). => There would be tension because of synergy.
- Second idea : go further into the "Lone Academies" bonus and make the UB replace all Academies arount the city, present and future, by a unique GPTI that has better yields when no surrounded by other improvements (so a strong base yield, but a malus for each adjacent non-road improvement). => There would be tension because of tile-usage.
+1) so that it wouldn't be a net loss, but more of a choice (in the case of the AI, this would mean less science, but more culture in general).As I said, these are simply ideas I throw there, no panacea.
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