Kruelgor's Huge Earth (almost complete)

[Kruelgor]

What-ifs are awesome and I love it, but not an extreme unrealistic what-if. No way.

The Iroquois had a 0% chance of dominating the North American continent even if the Europeans had never shown up. Just too many other Native American tribes.

 

[Vordeo]

Well, it's your mod.

What-ifs are awesome and I love it, but not an extreme unrealistic what-if. No way.

Like the Babylon civ getting modern armor?

Or America building Stonehenge?

Or a leader surviving a couple of millenia?

All of those are more unrealistic then the Iroquois wiping out the early American colonies.

Thanks for the feedback.

To have the Iroquois on the map as a standard civilization would put them on the same level as the United States or any of the other great civilizations on the planet, and that they were not. Their population was only in the tens of thousands. It's far more realistic to have the young United States battling it out with barbarian archers for supremacy of the continent.

Remove the Songhai and the Siamese as well, then.

Neither ever got near the reach and influence of modern day America.

You are very mistaken, Kruglor. The Iroquois were indeed on the same level as all the other civs. For one, it was the only true democracy in the New World. The confederacy, distipe its name, was the most centralized non Mesoamerican state before colonization occurred (Then again, it being a confederacy should also tell you how much it really was centralised). The " only tens of thousands" was AFTER plague and warfare, which even then they were by far the strongest native empire that hadn't collapsed, and would remain so until the post-Revolutionary War era.

What he said. It's a civilization as much as any, and you're taking a very Euro-centric view here.

The Iroquois had a 0% chance of dominating the North American continent even if the Europeans had never shown up. Just too many other Native American tribes.

Yes, but (barring arguably Rome, and even that would be a weak case considering the Teutons) no civ has ever actually dominated the rest of the European continent, so you should throw out England, France, Germany, Russia etc.

That's leaving aside the fact that the Iroquois essentially represent all Native American tribes in this game. And the fact that Native Americans weren't as bent on conquest as Europeans.

Alexander is leader of Macedonia, not greece.

Macedonia and Greece were two different kingdoms, but Alex essentially ruled over both, so making the distinction is a bit strange. If you're talking modern times, Macedonia is an independent republic, but Greece has a province also called Macedonia, and Alexander was actually born in modern day Greek territory. It'd be a bit like changing Germany to 'Prussia' and making Bismarck have to conquer Dresden, Hanover, etc. Sure he unified them at a point in his life, but Alexander did the same in Greece.

Don't think there's any need for that change, but if you want to do it, go for it.

 

[aimlessgun]

I think the Iroquois can easily be imagined as all native americans. You are right in that it is hard to put any of the North American native civilizations on the same boat as the other ones, but also recall that approximately 90-99% of the Native population in North America was wiped out by plague before Europeans got around to doing population estimates. Modern estimates of pre-'discovery' North America range from 5-10 million to some extremes of 40-50 million.

 

[Kruelgor]

Great community here on the forum. Thanks everyone for your feedback. We're going to have some good times with all these creations of ours.

This is exciting.

 

[Kruelgor]

I think the Iroquois can easily be imagined as all native americans.

Good idea. I was thinking of possibly having the Iroquois main civilization but simply renaming it to Native Americans.

Only problem is they will be settled on a continent with great vast wealth and resources, so they would have a very good probability of rising to the #1 spot quickly in the game, so if I were to do that I would have to do something to keep them down for a while to create a more real feel.

 

[Lord Shadow]

Only problem is they will be settled on a continent with great vast wealth and resources, so they would have a very good probability of rising to the #1 spot quickly in the game, so if I were to do that I would have to do something to keep them down for a while to create a more real feel.

They have to compete with the Americans and Aztecs, which have the same chance of becoming powerful fairly early. There's no need to keep any civilization "down" as they are all meant to be equal in the beginning. Granted, European nations will probably have a harder time due to having more neighbours around, but most of the other civs have a considerable amount of space to expand in.

 

[Kruelgor]

They have to compete with the Americans and Aztecs, which have the same chance of becoming powerful fairly early. There's no need to keep any civilization "down" as they are all meant to be equal in the beginning. Granted, European nations will probably have a harder time due to having more neighbours around, but most of the other civs have a considerable amount of space to expand in.

That's the problem I have. Iroquois should not be on the same level as America or Aztecs. Their lack of contribution to science and culture along with an ultra tiny population puts them in the 'barbarian' category in my opinion.

 

[Paasky]

Can't you add the Iroquois 3 or 4 times and rename them into the other natives found in NA?

 

[Kruelgor]

Can't you add the Iroquois 3 or 4 times and rename them into the other natives found in NA?

Yes. Definitely.

 

[civ_king]

Should be done within a couple of days.

Europe is enlarged. By stretching Europe I'm also stretching Africa so to retain the Mediterranean's destinct look and for accurate North African crossings.

I used a graph system to copy the world map so it's highly accurate. The Pacific has been shrunken though. I cut off the ice caps since they're pretty much irrelevant.

Capital cities already established in their historical location.

I've placed down realistic resources based on world export statistics and resource maps, and it's damn amazing how South Africa is loaded with jewels and silver, truly amazing what they have there.

I'm renaming the minor civs to national names instead of cities. Lots of minor nations including Phillipines, Congo, Morocco, Tunisia, Spain, Israel, and many more.

Alexander is leader of Macedonia, not greece.

Iroquois have been removed and replaced with loads of Barbarian archers on the north american continent.

Lots of pacific islands with tons of fish and pearls to encourage colonization. Japan's ring of fire a possibility here.

You do realize that in Civ V Greece represents Hellenic culture right? And when Alexander was born Macedonia was Hellic and he spread Hellenic civilization over a vast area

Thanks for the feedback.

The Iroquois will not be in this scenario. Not only is it unfair to the hundreds of other American tribes, it's also unrealistic to put them on the same level as the other main civilizations. It would be more realistic to have a minor civilization called 'Native Americans", but since they were historically very technologically backwards they will be portrayed in this map as barbarians.

And Aztec weren't backwards?

Do you think 'deer' in Africa would be stupid for verison 1.0? I would prefer for them to be gazelle (I can mod them in a later version), but do you think the player would be fine using his imagination or should I not have any deer in Africa?

Deer are fine, they represent (IMO) all types of deer

Good idea. I was thinking of possibly having the Iroquois main civilization but simply renaming it to Native Americans.

Only problem is they will be settled on a continent with great vast wealth and resources, so they would have a very good probability of rising to the #1 spot quickly in the game, so if I were to do that I would have to do something to keep them down for a while to create a more real feel.

You do realize that in real life the US is close to the size of Europe right? plus they have to deal with the US and Aztec

That's the problem I have. Iroquois should not be on the same level as America or Aztecs. Their lack of contribution to science and culture along with an ultra tiny population puts them in the 'barbarian' category in my opinion.

What exactly did the Aztec or Songhai contribute?
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The Iroquois were not a tribe, they were in fact a Confederation of tribes with a written constitution (first in North America) and they were on a path to consume everything in their path besides British North America (who were their allies). They had a tendency to consume other tribes by assimilate or die and they killed all of the adults, but kept and raised the children in their way of life.