Kuriotate & Elohim Fixing Ideas

[Verily]

We knew when designing the Sprawling mechanic (ie: settlements) that some players would love it and some player wouldnt. One of the advantages of the 21 civ design is that it gave us the opportunity to include civ designs that we knew wouldnt appeal to everyone. And that's perfectly fine with us.

If there are civs that you like better than others then we aren't doing our job differentiating them enough. Sprawling isn't going anywhere and we dont want every civ to appeal to any one player.

The idea here, and in my opinion, is not to get rid of Sprawling, or of the flavor of the Kuriotates. Their megacities are maintained (the capital), just toned down a bit. I actually enjoy playing as the Kuriotates, but I find the current rules governing them oppressive--it makes them very much one-track with little room for creativity.

I think reworking what it means to be Sprawling would greatly improve the uniqueness of the Kuriotates as well as the strength of the Kuriotate AI. A Tolerant/Sprawling/Philosophical/Expansive Cardith with cities of immense culture and size but restrictions on expansion (maybe with a Palace that doubles city count maintenance or something, and closing off the Palace Tolerant problem rather than Settlements) would really go a long way.

 

[Ekolite]

Kol, why don't you mod it yourself?

I think it would be a bit beyond my level of computer skils . I still haven't worked out how to make vista let me rename Evermore to Eve in the Excel Editor .

 

[Zechnophobe]

I'm rather liking how the Elohim play with the Tolerant trait. I still feel it is odd they are a very spirit-tech related civ, with no spiritual leaders, however.

Since tolerant is now their 'civ' mechanic, can we maybe have Ethne or Einon lose Defensive for Spiritual?

 

[nadszyszkownik]

I agree that Kuriorates are more thematically inclined towards Tolerant trait than Elohim. While, yes, Elohim will most certainly tolerate different races and outlooks on life and world, they most certainly will not tolerate mass murdering people by hungry vamps or stealing their souls just because the perpetrators are now also fellow citizens and should have the right to do as they will. The purpose of Elohim is not acceptance but redemption (or conversion if you want to have the option of fall open). They don't just want peace, they want creation-wide eudemonia . So instead of producing freakshows and vampires and whatnot they could have a special ability that would allow them a chance to redeem other units. Instead of wiping out your Ashen Veil bloodthirsty neighbors (or even the less evil ones) you could send in your units to "talk" a bit with theirs.
The ability would give a chance to convert unit not to the Elohim civilization, but to the Elohim philosophy- basically giving the unit a good alignment (if that's possible- if not, a simple marking "redeemed" promotion will do) and taking away (and disabling gaining new) any and all clearly evil abilities (that would make the unit weaker, but after all road to redemption is much harder than fall). If enough units of a given civilization would be so redeemed they would have a chance of starting a rebellion/revolution which would change they're civ's alignment (as well as civics and religion if necessary) to good and maybe optionally enter into alliance with Elohim. (Also- units captured with command (and subdue animal/beast if they can have evil promotions/abilities) should be put under this automatically)
I think that play much better into their theme- it would make them the ultimate peacemongers who only fight when all else fails, and would explain why they are so disliked for they're meddling. With enough skill and luck (and not too high difficulty level of course) it would be possible to win the game without a single fight.

As for other ideas
*metropolis wonder instead of third ring for all cities- don't like it
*Gardens of Splendor for Elohim- I'm for it, but maybe without the science bonus. Such gardens should be places of rest, meditation and spiritual inspiration, not research. Alternatively, maybe they could have an upkeep- after all keeping highly aesthetic gardens in good condition all the time requires much work.
*Corlindale has vote in overcouncil- I'm for it
*the various unique units- the more the merrier, though I'll leave stats and balancing to others

 

[Vehem]

I do actually like the sprawling mechanic, I only suggested it be removed so that they could work with the Tolerance trait, although Saytr's idea would mean that wouldn't be neccessary. I know tolerance itself actually fits the Elohim better then Kuriotates, but I will never be convinced that the Elohim are particularly multi-racial. I would probably have had the trait renamed to suit the Kurios better.

Kol, why don't you mod it yourself?

Alternately - can I hijack most of the suggestions for the Elohim? I'm looking at using the mechanic from "Tolerant" for a new civ (one that isn't very "Tolerant", more "Conquer and Command") and have been discussing ideas for what to give the Elohim back in return.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

Vehem, you could also find some good ideas here http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=8848

 

[Milosrdenstvi]

Strongly disagree with removing the current Kuriotates mechanic. HOWEVER, a few things need to be tweaked on it to allow them to work better.

* Unique building giving a hammer per sea square. Essential, because otherwise wasting a megacity on a port is just ridiculous. ALTERNATIVELY, a unique unit that can be sacrificed in a port settlement (or, for a different mechanic, forest bordering sea) to create a ship.

* VERY LIMITED ability to improve settlements. Perhaps a range of settlement-only buildings (constructable at 1 hammer/turn over the course of 10 turns or so): one spawns centaurs, another spawns adepts, another boosts science, another culture, another gold, etc. These would be made so that only one can be built in each settlement. ALTERNATIVELY, improvements built (or unique units sent on missions a la Great Merchants) improve the closest megacity.

* Faster COTD spread. This is just something that needs fixed period. Possibly also some cult-related buildings that increase happiness or something. Kuriotates always need more happiness.

(On the subject of happiness buildings for Kuriotates, I've thought a 'Butterfly Garden', representing Amathaon, and increasing happiness, would also be a neat touch. Perhaps also the ability to build a non-mana-giving palace in each city at a certain size.)

* As captured enemy cities starve down to settlements, the population of the super-cities should increase, in a ratio of 1 (distributed randomly) to every 4 or 5 of a captured city.

Legends, incidentally, is an awesome worldspell, especially when being cast after filling up every spare space with settlements. IMO the boost should be even bigger for the super-cities, and there should be other culture-boosting options for the Kuriotates.


As for Elohim, I STRONGLY recommend Spiritual for both leaders. It seems so logical and thematic I don't know why they don't have it. They're an order of monks, after all!

 

[Vehem]

Vehem, you could also find some good ideas here http://forums.civfanatics.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=8848

Almost forgot about that thread - thanks. I like the monastary/abbey angle in particular.

Current thinking is roughly...

From Kol7
1. Give them a Unique Wonder, the Gardens of Splendor, that they get for free in Cahir Abbey. It would provide: +50% culture, +30% GPP and +20% science in the city. This would give them an even quicker Great Sage or Prophet in the early game and a decent science boost, but will continue to become more and more useful as time goes on. This would probably be capturable by other civs. It would have an interesting synergy with both leaders as it improves the affect of Ethne's Creative and Einion's Philosophical.

I'd probably tie this into their Palace - probably renaming it in the process (monastic orders can probably do without palaces for their rulers).

2. Corlindale would provide an extra vote on the overcouncil. The Elohim are known for being meddling pains in the arse in Lore, what better way to meddle with other countries affairs then through the Overcouncil?

Definitely agreeing on this one...

3. An Ancient Archives UB that replaces the Library. It would provide 1 , as well as giving 40% science and 1 Priest slot.

40% Science, 1 Priest slot, no Sage slot sounds fair I think...

From Elohim with Salsa
Monasteries as UB Pagan Temples
Might rebalance the effects slightly, and also make them the pre-req for Monks.

Abbey as "requires X Monasteries" building
Would be relatively expensive and grant Spirit Affinity to the Monks on visiting, amongst other benefits.

And a few other ideas...
Possible Cathedral level building, National Wonder, requiring a number of Abbeys - "Minster" for a name perhaps?
Unique Paladin as suggested by Kol7, but reworked to be less "militant".
A number of benefits for visiting the landmarks (event triggered - possibly extra traits given as with Illians visiting Letum Frigus). Possibly tying the strongest effects to a "Pilgrim" unit.

===

Makes them a builder civ (multiple Monasteries for the Abbey, then multiple Abbeys for the Minster) with strong spiritual/disciple ties (Monks and Paladins) with an incentive to actually travel to the Unique Sites.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I had a crazy idea for the Elohim a week or two ago. What do you think about this:

Monasteries are an Elohim UB (@ Mysticism), which can also be built by sacrificing a Monk in any city (including foreign cities).

Monks require Monasteries in order to be trained, but not be a UU. Thus, any civ would be able to build Monks, that is after the Elohim have established a Monastery in their cities. (Well, the Infernals should probably not be allowed to train them. Requiring good or at least non-evil alignment rather than a civ seems appropriate.)

And now the crazy part: whenever a non-Elohim civ build a Monk, the Monk is converted to an Elohim unit (a random Elohim civ if there are multiples) on the spot.

(This would probably require a python block only letting Monks be built by civs with peaceful contact with the Elohim. If they are at war with one of multiple Elohim civs, then obviously the monks would go to the one with who they are at peace.)

This could make that the Elohim seem more "tolerant," since you would have monks of many races joining from their empire, and the requirement that they be at peace to get the free units could encourage peace-mongering.




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* Unique building giving a hammer per sea square. Essential, because otherwise wasting a megacity on a port is just ridiculous. ALTERNATIVELY, a unique unit that can be sacrificed in a port settlement (or, for a different mechanic, forest bordering sea) to create a ship.

I Don't like the idea of making the Kurioates a naval power. However, I'm not opposed to implementing the equivalents of Levees, Dikes, Customs Houses, Maori Statues, etc., for everyone. I also think that Enclaves should have ActAsCity, so they could be used as cannals. I'd also suggest a water walking and/or flying UU or too. (Too bad the Aifons are extinct, or I'd say they sould have people of the mer.)

* VERY LIMITED ability to improve settlements. Perhaps a range of settlement-only buildings (constructable at 1 hammer/turn over the course of 10 turns or so): one spawns centaurs, another spawns adepts, another boosts science, another culture, another gold, etc. These would be made so that only one can be built in each settlement. ALTERNATIVELY, improvements built (or unique units sent on missions a la Great Merchants) improve the closest megacity.

The current implementation of settlements prevents them from building anything, ever. This very limited change would be quite hard to pull off, at least in a way the AI can handle. You could easily, however, give the Kuriotates some UUs that have the ability to force the creation of these buildings in settlements.
[/quote]
* Faster COTD spread. This is just something that needs fixed period. Possibly also some cult-related buildings that increase happiness or something. Kuriotates always need more happiness.[/quote]


I definitely agree that the Cult of the Dragon needs to do more. In my version, it will have missionaries(/executives), and will be required to perform the ritual needed before Dragins can be buildable. CotD and religious units will have spells with a chance of making nearby units abandon their faith for the caster's faith. Apostate priests will change ownership and become a new type of unit with different abilities (I'm not really sure what yet.) I'm also thinking the Kuriotates Royal Guard UUs will have to be a CoTD unit (in addition to requiring God King instead of Aristocracy;in keeping with the lore, the Kuriotates reject Feudalism).

(Dragons will be quite powerful and cheap but will count as Nukes. Thus, a Manhatten-Project-like ritual will be added to make them all buildable. I'll probably add a few more late game barbarian dragons, so most civs will not want this ritual completed.)

(On the subject of happiness buildings for Kuriotates, I've thought a 'Butterfly Garden', representing Amathaon, and increasing happiness, would also be a neat touch. Perhaps also the ability to build a non-mana-giving palace in each city at a certain size.)

I don't really like the name, but the idea of a garden UB/wonder for them is good (and it was my idea first)

* As captured enemy cities starve down to settlements, the population of the super-cities should increase, in a ratio of 1 (distributed randomly) to every 4 or 5 of a captured city.

I was thinking about making much of the population relocate (mostly to the old owner's cities) whenever any city is razed. Making the same apply when cities are demoted to settlements is probably good too.

 

[Zechnophobe]

Y'know, For starving settlements, could we maybe just have each one provide like, +4 food per turn to a random real city each turn, if their population is greater than one?

 

[Wyrmhero]

From Elohim with Salsa
Unique Paladin as suggested by Kol7, but reworked to be less "militant".

I quite liked the Sohei unit from the Elohim with Salsa: A 3 strength Paladin UU that gained 100% strength in its own borders seemed very thematic for a defensive Civ.

 

[Visage Darkskin]

I actually really like the sprawling trait. Fewer cities, each with more production, population and commerce are of great appeal to me because of the dramatic decrease in micromanagement. Settlements, as I remember, where only meant to provide access to resources and expand the borders. I think about them as tribal villages or towns which allow me to expand my frontiers (except for the bonus I get when I am able to build wonders that provide free buildings).
While I agree that the tolerant trait initially might fit the Kurio thematically, I think their playstyle and lore uniqueness has already been perfectly captured by the supercities.
Ultimately, it is quite simple to edit the leader traits or the maximum number of supercities allowed yourself, as I usually do in my games.
I wouldn't mind seeing other unique species replacing the Kurio's units, besides the cavalry (which is great) or other unique buildings, reflecting their multi-species approach. Maybe include unique Kurio elven and orcish units/buildings which the Clan, Svartalfar, and Ljosalfar don't have access to? You know, when migrants move to other large countries and societies, they maintain their uniqueness while adapting to the new place and costumes (over the medium and long term, and if given the chance to participate fully of the advantages of this new country). They create unique things, which are the offspring of both cultures and societies.