Largest economy in the world in history?

Venice might have been a major trading and economical power, possibly even the biggest economically in Europe til the Portuguese totally crashed their trade. However their trade was produced from goods taxed not once but twice, thrice, four times blah blah blah by the tens of states. And the amount of goods that trickled into Europe was so little that it takes only a few Portuguese Caravels to crash the entire trade between Egypt and Venice.

The role of European nations in the global economy is relatively tiny until possibly somewhere in the late 1770s or 1780s when trade between the Americas and India become more of a European monopoly and the just beginning of the Industrial Revolution

well... I know... but I just always heard about like Ming (Qing?) Empires that cut down trade alot, and it seems like that would also hurt the global economy... like the Shogunate in Japan...

but then again.. I have only had a VERY brief overview of Chinese history, so I've got no clue... I'm just gunna' believe that you're right
 
well... I know... but I just always heard about like Ming (Qing?) Empires that cut down trade alot, and it seems like that would also hurt the global economy... like the Shogunate in Japan...

but then again.. I have only had a VERY brief overview of Chinese history, so I've got no clue... I'm just gunna' believe that you're right

The Ming empire did cut down the trade between the outside world. However, the Ming Empire was HUGE with the Worlds largest population in a single State until maybe the Mughal Empire in around 1650s. With a population that big and the amount of internal prodution and trade produced, their economy is enough to not only sustain itself but to be powerful large.
Its like the Soviet Union in the 1950s. Not much trade out of the country but the internal activities are huge due to the high population and production
 
The Ming empire did cut down the trade between the outside world. However, the Ming Empire was HUGE with the Worlds largest population in a single State until maybe the Mughal Empire in around 1650s. With a population that big and the amount of internal prodution and trade produced, their economy is enough to not only sustain itself but to be powerful large.
Its like the Soviet Union in the 1950s. Not much trade out of the country but the internal activities are huge due to the high population and production

OOH.... makes sense
 
well... I know... but I just always heard about like Ming (Qing?) Empires that cut down trade alot, and it seems like that would also hurt the global economy... like the Shogunate in Japan...

but then again.. I have only had a VERY brief overview of Chinese history, so I've got no clue... I'm just gunna' believe that you're right

Its true that the Ming/Qing may have been a period of long term decline for China (honestly, I don't think China ever recovered from the Mongol conquest of the most advanced and dynamic Chinese Dynasty ever in the Song), but much of the rest of the world, Europe especially, was still a comparative backwater to China. In terms of wealth, power, armies, influence, urbanization, sophistication, and technology...they pretty much kicked everyones collective a$$es.

Imagine if the Roman Empire never fell. Sure there are a few splits. Some outside conquerors who get absorbed in a century or two. But that is essentially china for the last two thousand years. An immense, uninterrupted empire that had the tea, silk, spices (India too), and porcelain...essentially all the trade goods that Europeans would kill their grandmothers for...sitting right there.

Its easy to say 'well, that's not too huge of a deal. Rome conquered Gaul, North Africa, the Levant, Greece, Spain, Egypt, and all those other countries'...well, China conquered territories almost as big. And their conquest was so incredibly total that nearly everyone in those places considers themselves Chinese, and whatever pseudo-national identity they may have had before the conquest no longer exists.

Once again, it was not until the Industrial Revolution, which a historian on the off-topic forum described as perhaps the single most important and drastic event in human history since the invention of agriculture, that the West could compete.
 
none of the links to wiki on page one works, and I would really really like to see that article
 
none of the links to wiki on page one works, and I would really really like to see that article

Hmmm...that's weird. They worked fine when I posted them.

Just to be safe, screw the links.
Go to wiki and type:

List of regions by past GDP

That should bring you to the proper page. Don't really know why they're not working.
 
You just have to close the brackets in the link (add an ")", that's all). ;)

In any case, that only gives us a few points of reference throughout 2008 years...
 
Hmmm...that's weird. They worked fine when I posted them.

Just to be safe, screw the links.
Go to wiki and type:

List of regions by past GDP

That should bring you to the proper page. Don't really know why they're not working.

tnx

1234567890
 
this is my rough estimate

Babylon-Egypt-Greece-Carthage-Rome-Franks-Holy Roman Empire-Byzantine-Venice-Spain-France-Britain-Germany-America

And probably somewhere between Egypt and Franks, china would be somewhere around there.
 
this is my rough estimate

Babylon-Egypt-Greece-Carthage-Rome-Franks-Holy Roman Empire-Byzantine-Venice-Spain-France-Britain-Germany-America

And probably somewhere between Egypt and Franks, china would be somewhere around there.

You are still grossly overestimating the European powers:king:
Population is everything prior to the Industrial Revolution. So there is no way those tiny kingdoms in Europe can surpass India/China (or may be Arab)?:crazyeye:
 
Babylon-Egypt-Greece-Carthage-Rome-Franks-Holy Roman Empire-Byzantine-Venice-Spain-France-Britain-Germany-America

As the old historian once said, the Holy Roman Empire was neither Holy, Roman, nor an empire. Putting it up there is a tad silly. And the Franks' claim to fame is stalling the Muslim conquest of Europe and uniting a few lands there, granting a VERY temporary, minor renaissance. No sooner did they splinter than the Viking's started pillaging at will throughout Europe.

After Rome it'd probably look more like this: China, China, China, China, China, China, Napoleon's Empire, British Empire, Germany, America. (India was very rarely a united entity during that period of history, so hard to list them above China. Maybe a brief period under the Mughals)

If we remove China from the equation, it might go like this.

Rome, Eastern Roman Empire, Umayyad Caliphate (furthest extent of initial Muslim Conquest).

After that its a tough call until the Mongol Conquest. Europe was a splintered backwater, so its hard to mention them. The Byzantines were still strong, but the initial Mongol expansion pushed them back hard. India was still divided. Probably the Seljuk Turks' empire, but that didn't expand til later. So we're left with a few hundred year gap here. Probably put it between the Eastern Romans and one of the Caliphate successor states.

Than the Mongol empire. Without question. Even if we exclude China, they pretty much controlled everything East of Poland.

After that there's no clear successor without China in the mix. Venice made its rise around this time. Than eventually the Ottoman's became dominant. Mughal's were huge as well a bit later. Around that time Spain was making its own global play. For a couple of centuries you could probably pick one of those three.

Than Napoleon conquered most of Europe and made a brief blip for the top spot, Britain had probably surpassed Spain and everyone else even before that and most certainly were tops after that. And the rest is already covered.
 
Just imagine what China's economy would look like today if it had not become a communist nation in 1949.
 
Just imagine what China's economy would look like today if it had not become a communist nation in 1949.

Just imagine what it would have been like if it hadn't been raped by foreign powers like the Europeans and Japanese which had far more to do with China's condition than Communism. Communism was a result of China's condition not the cause of it.
 
Just imagine what China's economy would look like today if it had not become a communist nation in 1949.

We're seeing that now. Ever since things were loosened up there its been growing faster than pretty much anywhere in the world.
 
I´d say more like:

(Older to newst)
-Sumeria
-Egypt
-Hitites
-Assyrian
-Babylonian
-Mycenae
-Phoenicia
-Greece
-Macedonia
-Carthage
-Rome
-Chinese Empire
-Byzantine Empire
-Holy Roman Empire
-Franks
-Vikings
-Moors/Arabs
-Venice
-Portugal
-Aztec,Maya&Inca
-Spain
-Dutch
-England
-Otoman Empire
-Austrian-Hugarian Empire
-Prussia and Russian empire
-France
-United Kingdom&CW
-Germany
-Japan
-USA
-USSR
-USA again & European Union
-China?Brazil?Russia?
 
Just imagine what China's economy would look like today if it had not become a communist nation in 1949.

China was essentially an overglorified vassal state being carved up by more dominant powers long before anyone in that country even knew what Communist was. Communism caused a ton of problems, but that wasn't the reason for China's decline. It was the lack of an industrial revolution that killed them. European and later American societies had essentially been reordered overnight. (in historical terms) Any country that became thoroughly industrialized had a prohibitive advantage over any country that had not. China came late to the game, had alot of stuff that western powers wanted, and got routinely exploited.

There are a number of cultural and/or resource based arguments for why they were late to industrialize, but whatever the reasons, it set them back at a MASSIVE disadvantage compared to other countries. Communism did some devastating damage to China that many parts of the country still haven't recovered from. But the Kuomintang (Nationalists) were incredibly corrupt and incompetent themselves. While they wouldn't have bee prone to ideological led disaster, its an open argument whether their stewardship would've been much better.
 
I´d say more like:

(Older to newst)
-Sumeria
-Egypt
-Hitites
-Assyrian
-Babylonian
-Mycenae
-Phoenicia
-Greece
-Macedonia
-Carthage
-Rome
-Chinese Empire
-Byzantine Empire
-Holy Roman Empire
-Franks
-Vikings
-Moors/Arabs
-Venice
-Portugal
-Aztec,Maya&Inca
-Spain
-Dutch
-England
-Otoman Empire
-Austrian-Hugarian Empire
-Prussia and Russian empire
-France
-United Kingdom&CW
-Germany
-Japan
-USA
-USSR
-USA again & European Union
-China?Brazil?Russia?

I'm curious when the Soviets ever surpassed us in economic might or overall power. Or how the new world'ers make any list...at any time...ever. This seems more like a desire to list every historic empire that ever earned a line in a history book. Many of them never came close to deserving a place up there.
 
I'm curious when the Soviets ever surpassed us in economic might or overall power. Or how the new world'ers make any list...at any time...ever. This seems more like a desire to list every historic empire that ever earned a line in a history book. Many of them never came close to deserving a place up there.

Damm, you americans should really start reading more books and start watching less television. :p
 
Damm, you americans should really start reading more books and start watching less television. :p

its true... especially me :mischief:

but anyway... I've never known the Holy Roman Empire to be that economically powerful... might you point me in the right direction so I can look up on it?


and is the last like supposed to be your guess of who is going to be next? Because I'm pretty sure its safe to say it is gunna' be China (at least for a while)
they're beating out Brazil and Russia atm (at least in growth rate, I'd imagine)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/11/Gdp_real_growth_rate_2007_CIA_Factbook.PNG
 
People are really overestimating the size of European economies in the Middle Ages, particularly the Dark Ages. For example, during Charlemagne's reign, the Abbasid Caliphate and T'ang China would have had much larger economies.
 
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