Latecomer to civ series, first proper game, could do with advise

[pat1968]

Hi all

Im a very latecomer to the civ series, ive always been more into FPS in the past.

But i fancied a change, and got civ3 complete off amazon, tried a quick game on easiest level, then settled down for my first proper game (regent, massive pangea)

Love the game!, but first game has gone awry and any advise appreciated (save attached)

As you can see, i have no coal... i can see some in chinese land quite deep in and id go for it but i have been scrapping the vikings for a while now (they went for me) and my cities are complaining about the war. Got a few queries if i may trouble you.

I think coal is pretty vital though? And despite a big military feel quite vulnerable.

Id thought of making peace with the vikings, heading for motorized transport then going for the coal... does that make sense?

Land placement.... ive read some guides this morning..and i guess my placement is way to wide... i saw opponents either side, felt hemmed in and grabbed land... a bad move increasing land gaps when on pangea?

As ive taken undeveloped viking cities...my science seems to be dropping, am i imagining this?

Domination victory is the one i wanted, but i think the map is too big?

And finally, the AI is incredibly mean with trades...is this normal?

Sorry for so many questions, really im just not sure where to go from here and would appreciate tips.

Save attached

 

[vmxa]

The trades depend on what it is you are trading. If you want a lux, it can get crazy. The larger your empire, in terms of towns, the more you will have to pay. The more luxs you have the more you will have to pay.

This is due to the fact that each additional lux means a lot more to you, when you have a large number of towns and if you have a market the multiplier effect of each lux after 2, is significant.

Domination is not a problem, unless you have lots of islands. Then time becomes an issue.

I will load the game and see what I can offer, but I suspect that it will be the lack of workers early. Towns with structures they cannot afford. Too many defenders. Those are the most common problems.

 

[Aabraxan]

I'm going to load up the save, too, but I suspect that vmxa has hit it on the head.

 

[pat1968]

Yeah it was luxuries, ive been trying to control happiness ...with people complaining about war its a big issue and luxury rate has just gone up to a silly high level. But they wanted

a luxury back

contact

AND a tech or two... which seemed crazy.

Domination, i was just worried about the sheer number of cities id have... and the effect on productivity of other cities as a result.

And thanks, its much appreciated, and it sounds like youve seen a LOT of newbies with messed up regent games...it was your guide i found this morning i think

Thanks again

Pat

 

[vmxa]

Just wondering about China, did you just make peace with them or is a war about to be launched?

 

[pat1968]

China has Rights of passage with me, and i brought them into the war against the vikings. The vikings attacked me, i panicked a bit and payed the chinese to join me in an alliance against them (i thought the vikings were stronger than they were) .. the alliance was cancelled peacefully a little while ago...but i dont know how to cancel right of passage or even wether i should.

I do want war with china eventually because im desperate for coal ...but i dont think im ready to fight them, and i want tanks first i think?.

 

[vmxa]

You have a lot of land to conquer to get from 17% to 66% and it is already late IA. That means you will need to fight more or less endlessly from now on. This can be done as you have 4 lux home grown an 1 imported.

If you can gain a lux from the current war or the next one, you should be fine to fight in Republic, else you may need to switch to Monarchy and take a the hit. I do not bother to asks for lux deals with 4, unless it is some backward nation that I can get it for a tech and maybe a lux of mine.

The deal will just be too expensive and do too much for the other guy, if they are a decent empire.

 

[vmxa]

China has Rights of passage with me, and i brought them into the war against the vikings. The vikings attacked me, i panicked a bit and payed the chinese to join me in an alliance against them (i thought the vikings were stronger than they were) .. the alliance was cancelled peacefully a little while ago...but i dont know how to cancel right of passage or even wether i should.

I do want war with china eventually because im desperate for coal ...but i dont think im ready to fight them, and i want tanks first i think?.

I doubt that you needed help with the Vikes, but I do not know the original situation. I sure do not want to give any RoP. If you make an alliance, just let them come across and say nothing, while they are on your team.

Now they are parked all over your towns and that is dangerous. I have not gone over things, but I saw right away you are sitting on a leader? Immediately make an army with it.

You cannot get another MGL form combat as long as you have a leader of any kind. You can form an army and not fill it, if you want to hold it for other units like tanks.

 

[pat1968]

Yeah i figured that might be the case, i could see myself getting behind on tech eventually from constantly fighting ...ill go for space i think... maybee secure coal then go peaceful...

Anyway... Thanks for the tips mate, its really appreciated, and im sure u were wincing at my cities placed so far apart

Pat.

 

[pat1968]

"You cannot get another MGL form combat as long as you have a leader of any kind. You can form an army and not fill it, if you want to hold it for other units like tanks."

sorry for so many posts, but that i did not know!, thanks! yup was holding him for tanks.

Ill see if i can cancel the ROP without causing war with the chinese, it does make me nervous with their units near cities with 1 defender, i had more defence but it went on the attack....

 

[vmxa]

The the second thing I would do is to dial up Hiawatha and ask what he would give for Medicine.
He will give Salt, MT, Demo and a map.

I was looking for your Acad and now I see you do not have MT. That is a big no no for me, especially as you want a domination win. You must have armies to make things go fast and easy.

Make this trade and get the MA up asap. Upgrade knight and fill the 2nd army. Switch all you can to cavs, before the deal dies.

BTW I am not real crazy about adding the guerilla to the first army as its defense is far below an infantry unit.

The MT will let you get that 3rd army, so you can get the Pentagon up and add a 4th unit to all armies.

With cavs, I tend to not make tank armies as the extra move is so useful. Now that you have many with infantry to fight, you will need the tanks.

 

[Aabraxan]

OK, pat1968, I took a peek at your save. Here's my take:

First of all, you chose a massive pangaea for your landform. I'm not sure what map size does to tech costs, but IIRC, it does have an effect. I'd suggest sticking to standard-sized maps until you get more familiar with the game. By choosing pangaea, you sped up the tech pace. One common strategy is to go for archipelago map, and use "suicide galleys" to make contact with the other continent. Then use that position (the only one with contacts on both continents) to become a tech broker.

Here's a big problem: 54 cities, 27 native workers and 8 slaves. One of the most common problems that I see in new players is that they don't build enough workers early enough and don't use them effectively. The lowly worker adds gold to your treasury, speeds up your research, lets troops move more quickly, and hooks up your resources. Do not overlook him. Shoot for 2 workers per city, and don't hesitate to buy slaves from other civs.

Your city spacing actually looks pretty good, and it doesn't look like you built on top of any food bonuses anywhere, so that's good, too.

You have lots of defenders in cities where they can't be reached. Military units have no effect on happiness in a republic, so the infantry in Chichen Itza is eating up unit support, but not actually doing you any good. Either put him on a border where he might actually be attacked, or scuttle him for the shields.

Eighteen Rabbit is asleep in Chichen Itza. Got a plan for him? I'd suggest trading for MT, buy some salt, build a cav army and go a-warring.

What victory condition do you want? If it's conquest or domination, why build Bach's? You have a boatload of Wonders. They're fun if you can get them, but I suspect you could have had this game won by conquest or domination if you'd put the shields into military units and settlers. If you want to win by domination or conquest, go buy MT, and some salt, and swap all those stock exchanges for cavs. If you want to know a little more about the multiplier buildings (libraries, banks, etc.), see the article linked in my civ. Buy workers (or raze a few cities), get some coal and get rails laid.

You're spending too much on luxury. You only need more happy than unhappy people to prevent civil disorder. Also, why all the temples? You've got plenty of luxes. If you want them for a culture win, that's fine, but they're not necessary for domination.

Watch those buildings. One-shield towns that can't build a cav in less than 80 turns do not need a rax. Build arty there instead. Multiplier buildings don't do any good in towns with nothing to multiply. IOW, if a town's 90% corrupt and only producing 1 beaker, it doesn't get a library, because the library costs upkeep & doesn't get you anything in return. See the article linked in my sig.

I actually think that you've done pretty well. You've made some basic mistakes (too few workers, some unnecessary structures), but you'll be slapping Monarch around in no time.

 

[vmxa]

First cut:

F3 shows 126 units and 147 allowed.
1 leader, need to make an army right away.

You have only 2 artillery pieces. I would think you would want at least 10, but 30 would better.

56 guerilla units? I would have preferred to see maybe 12 and 44 more knights.
I presume that the guerilla units are MDI upgrades for the most part. That is a lot of cash for not much of a unit.

Trade Hiawatha Medicine for Salt, MT, Demo and a map.

Cancel all RoP deals, except maybe Iroq as I do not want to upset the Salt deal.
Drop slider on lux to 20% and up research to 60, lowers to 5 turns. Better yet cancel the RoP and then make the trade.

Builds:
Hospital 11
Markets 4
Courts 2
Stock 13
Wealth 3
Factories 7
Temple 3
Bank 5
University 4
Harbor 1
Hoovers

I will look at the towns to see what I would do, but in the main. I doubt I would have any reason to be making universities at this point. The reason is that any great science city should already have one, otherwise it probably is not needed there.

I cannot recall making 11 hospitals as 1) I do not research Sanitation 2) I cannot take the time to build them. Given that you have the tech and have so much to conquer I would let most of them finish now.

BTW you do not have the Preserve Seed on. You also do not have flips on. The culture flip should be on to learn how to deal with it.

Factories are similar to hospitals for me. I do build them, but only a few, unless it is to be a massive AW game. In a std map I just do not have enough great cities to bother making more than a handful. The bigger the map the more I will build them. Again, you have a long way to go, so it may be worth doing.

I would have to see, if the places making them are actually good cantidates though.

I am leaving the spacing issue alone as you can do it wide or narrow. To me I see no value to more than CxxC. This is due to the large number of tiles that will be unusable for most of the game. All the game for me as I will not have a hospital in most places.

I acknowledge the strong pull to have all these nice big fat cities and most will go that route.

54 towns and only 27 workers and some slaves. This means lots tiles not improved. Some have no roads. Others still have forest, which I like to see chopped, before Steam. This lets me lay a rail faster and gain the extra food or shields. True you do not have coal, but you will and have a short fall of about 75 workers. You did not know you would not have coal and should have been getting workers prepared.

You have lots of units sitting in towns that have no use for them. Put them on the borders or better yet attack with them.

 

[pat1968]

Wow guys THANKS, i feel a complete moron for not realising MT let me build armies
And cant believe i didnt spot the trade for saltpeter, yup the Guerillas are upgrades from Medieval infantry... and cost a bomb

The temples... i built a lot of them because i thought it was a way of increasing the area of influence of a city...and was trying to fill gaps so noone settled there...bad move?

And the luxury rate, well i had 4 cities go into disorder and i was only 3 or 4 moves from ending the war, so i have to confess i just shoved it up to stop that happening... should have micromanaged more... i think thats something i dont do.

The workers..wow 2 per city? that would have killed me early on as a republic i think, but ill pump more out now thanks..

Anyway, i have cavalry armies to build lol and sum chinese to go slaughter.. huuuuge thanks guys.

Pat

 

[vmxa]

"pat1968"

"The temples... i built a lot of them because i thought it was a way of increasing the area of influence of a city...and was trying to fill gaps so noone settled there...bad move?"

Maybe may not. CxxC you do not need culture to fill in as it is filled most of time. Flip off means, no need to have culture for that. Anyway with 4 lux, I would not make a temple. At least till it was a city. At Regent they should be happy.

"And the luxury rate, well i had 4 cities go into disorder and i was only 3 or 4 moves from ending the war, so i have to confess i just shoved it up to stop that happening... should have micromanaged more... i think thats something i dont do."

Depending on the places that went into disorder, you probably would be better off to flip a citizen to a specialist to keep them happy.

"The workers..wow 2 per city? that would have killed me early on as a republic i think, but ill pump more out now thanks.."

Well you could skate by with less for a time as you are industrial, but not with the wide spacing. The workers would have let you get more gold to pay for them with roads. They would have gotten irrigation done sooner and mines sooner, so the towns would be cities sooner to help pay for support.

True at points it would strain your money.

 

[Aabraxan]

. . . . And cant believe i didnt spot the trade for saltpeter, yup the Guerillas are upgrades from Medieval infantry... and cost a bmb

The MDI->Guerrilla upgrade is one of my least favorite. It just doesn't seem cost effective.

. . . .The temples... i built a lot of them because i thought it was a way of increasing the area of influence of a city...and was trying to fill gaps so noone settled there...bad move?

Generally, yes, IMO. There's a time and place to fill gaps using temples, but I usually use settlers and just put down more cities.

. . . .The workers..wow 2 per city? that would have killed me early on as a republic i think, but ill pump more out now thanks..

Another good reason to buy workers from the AI. Slaves don't cost any upkeep. They work at half-speed, but I try to keep enough of them that it doesn't matter.

 

[Spoonwood]

The larger the map, the higher the tech cost.

 

[pat1968]

well i was up till 3am playing last night ;( game should have a health warning with it lol. Anyway game should be won by domination now as two more opponents are down... largely due to VMxA pointing out i can build armies with MT...multiple attacks is a HUGE thing really.

One last question...its a real pain moving say 20 tanks one at a time to the same place... is there a way to move them in formation?

Ow and Aabraxan yeah guerillas seemed very dissapointing...civpedia states A:6 D:6 but i swear they are lower... but i thought guerilla-> tow infantry was a good deal?

 

[puwen]

One last question...its a real pain moving say 20 tanks one at a time to the same place... is there a way to move them in formation?

Ow and Aabraxan yeah guerillas seemed very dissapointing...civpedia states A:6 D:6 but i swear they are lower... but i thought guerilla-> tow infantry was a good deal?

For moving several units the command is "j"
Got a nice shart at www.civfanatics.net/downloads/civ3/reference/Civ3Keys.pdf

Imo the TOW Infantry is the resourcepoor mans army, when you are up in those techs and gpt the resources go for Mech Inf and Modern Armor.

 

[Arexander]

game should have a health warning with it

Well it does. Anyone of the advisors can say the next phrase in the night hours: "Sleep is for the weak!"