Leader traits

Just added a new version of the excel sheet in the thread which also includes allignments. Up till now we only discussed allignment of civs but individual leaders can have different allignments even in the same Civ, so I kept them as a seperate column for us to fill in. I also added some other columns from the finalized discussion thread so we have everything in the samen place and all linked to a civ.
 
My votes:
Philosophical: IN
Aggressive: IN
Spiritual: OUT
Expansive: IN
Industrious: IN
Creative: IN
Financial: IN (Dwarves)
Organized: IN
Charismatic: IN
Arcane: OUT
Magic Resistant: OUT
Agnostic: OUT
Barbarian: IN
Raiders (though adapted probably): IN
Summoner: OUT
Sprawling: IN
Ingenuity: IN
Adaptive: IN
Insane: OUT
Fallow: OUT
Tolerant: OUT
Dexterous: OUT
Guardsman: IN
Horselord: IN
Sinister: OUT
Sundered: OUT
Foolish: OUT
Weak: OUT
 
Horselord and other Civ-traits are going to be relatively small as to not interfere with other traits (so Theoden will get 2 traits on top of the civtrait).
Good then ^_^
Should we try and get a civ-trait for everybody, or leave some guys without one?

And I meant at least those two, as I couldn't think of terms for the others (also, I'd like to see every trait used at least twice). Skirmisher is meant for your Aragorn II suggestion, though I'm not completely sure how I'm going to implement it.
Ah. That's what I thought, just making sure.

Also note that a couple of your suggestions are decently covered with the FFH traits.
Yeah, I realize that now (extra gold from plundering and whatnot).
 
If you look at the excel sheet I posted, I actually added another one: adventurous. I was thinking something with hunding lodges or hunters or something. Also I added the Civ-specific ones I already remembered in the sheet. Please update that one if you have more suggestions. Also, I think the civ-specific ones are only needed if we want to and they make sense. The civs don't all have to have the sames things, as long as there is a balance. We can always balance it out with UUs, UBs, Civ-specific wonders, heroes, etc.
 
I'd leave a some without civ-trait.

Also, I meant seafaring to be for both some Teleri and some Numenorean leaders, though I guess it works as civtrait as well.

Edit (crosspost):
I like the sound of adventurous. There are a couple of leaders who can use that trait.
 
Ah I see, yeah we can make it a leader trait as well, or maybe civ trait for teleri and leader trait for one numenorean leader or something like that. I currently only gave adventurous to durin, but it could fit other leaders as well I think.

EDIT: you might be right that it would be strange to have a civ trait for a leader as well. and it would take away the uniqueness if both would have it as a civ trait. Maybe it would be good to just assign it to some leaders of the teleri and numenor
 
My votes:


Philosophical: IN
Aggressive: IN
Spiritual: OUT
Expansive: OUT (I don't have a problem with it, but I'm not sure to whom it would apply. Maybe the Orcs, do they have extra health?)
Industrious: IN
Creative: OUT (Again, not sure this would have a lot of use in the way I see the mod working).
Financial: IN (Dwarves)
Organized: IN
Charismatic: IN
Arcane: IN (Numenor, maybe the Vanyar, and Angmar; maybe Mordor. Clearly not for the third age.)
Magic Resistant: OUT
Agnostic: OUT
Barbarian: IN
Raiders: OUT (Maybe if changed, it is so powerful and I don't know if it fits well)
Summoner: OUT (Maybe Angmar)
Sprawling: IN (Agree it works for Saruman.)
Ingenuity: IN
Adaptive: IN (Again, who would have this kind of trait? It is very powerful. Ok, I like it for Numenor, this does seem to fit them as they from seafaring to expanding to Arcane to Aggressive. Numenor SHOULD be powerful.)
Insane: OUT
Fallow: IN (Morgoth)
Tolerant: OUT
Dexterous: IN (Like FfH, for the wood elves?)
Guardsman: OUT (Not a bad trait, who would get it? Gondor?)
Horselord: IN (Clearly for Rohan, the Hippus in FfH ARE Rohan!)
Sinister: IN (I actually like it for Aragorn, of course I wouldn't call it 'sinister'. But strong Recon units, if we have them, would go well with the ranger theme.)
Sundered: OUT
Foolish: OUT
Weak: OUT


Best wishes,

Breunor
 
I still think two different kinds of 'seafaring' would be good - an economic one and a military one.
Adventurous sounds good.

@Breunor: You're right about the recon units. Maybe a civ trait for Arnor?
 
Maybe 'Maritime' and 'Seafaring'? Strong recon units for Arnor sounds good to me.
 
We could call the trait Ranger for the recon line thingies (or Rangers, if it is for the Civ)? The thing is that Arnor wasn't really a ranger/recon line nation to start of with. This only happened after the kingdoms fell.

Edit: I like the difference in name. What would be the differences? Something like this:
Maritime: +1 trade route in coastal cities. Double production speed of ??
Seafaring: ships start with the Navigation 1 promotion. Double production speed of ??
 
We could call the trait Ranger for the recon line thingies (or Rangers, if it is for the Civ)? The thing is that Arnor wasn't really a ranger/recon line nation to start of with. This only happened after the kingdoms fell.
True, but Arnor before the fall is really boring.

Edit: I like the difference in name. What would be the differences? Something like this:
Maritime: +1 trade route in coastal cities. Double production speed of ??
Seafaring: ships start with the Navigation 1 promotion. Double production speed of ??

Something like that sounds good. I was thinking more:
Maritime: +1 gold/food in coastal tiles (maybe help make one-tile islands worth it?), double speed of harbor/lighthouse equivalents
Seafaring: Navigation 1 is good (I was thinking like Combat 1, but this makes it a little more neutral), double production of Drydock/whatever equivalents

Maybe for a variation on Maritime, you could have it also take away 1 gold/food on land tiles so that you have a big motivation to stick to the sea (a 1-tile island would be more productive than a landlocked city!). But that's starting to sound more like a Teleri civ trait that has no net gain, rather than a leader bonus.
 
True, but Arnor before the fall is really boring.

Hey now, that's not fair. There's um... and hmm... well never mind


@Bruenor: but what should Arcane do then? I agree that the leaders you mention have an arcane link, but their units shouldn't get 'magic' promotions, so we should fill it in differently then FFH.
 
Also:
Creative: Feanor
Expansive: Some neutral/evil men. The easterlings were good at populating IIRC :D
 
Hey now, that's not fair. There's um... and hmm... well never mind


@Bruenor: but what should Arcane do then? I agree that the leaders you mention have an arcane link, but their units shouldn't get 'magic' promotions, so we should fill it in differently then FFH.


Well, yes, a lot of ink has been spilled on the nature of magic in Tolkien which is a very complex topic, often dealing with Roman Catholic beliefs and creation. Clearly there is a complex link between magical power and song, as we see with the first age elves and Bombadil.


A key magic appears to creating items; obviously, we have some powerhouse ones like the Silmarils and the Rings of power. The 'simple' barrow-knives can kill the Witch-King; The Numenorean magic on their walls can hold Minas Tirith and Orthanc under certain conditions. Elrond causes the river to rise at the Fords of Bruinen.

We also have magic that makes new creatures, as Morgoth and even Saruman use to create creatures.

Finally, some basic spells like door locks and openings are used.



Now, getting simpler, if we want to include magic based on FfH, I would probably advocate just 'palace' mana, no mana nodes. We can have a few forms.

Saruman seems to have the equivalent of the domination spell in FfH, it should probably be Saruman specific. I would think the Witch King's 'creations' can be thought of as similar to basic summons like skeletons. We know Sting and Orcrist and swords from Gondolin can behave probably like enchanted blade.

I admit that giving a full range of magic will take a lot of work. However, I envision arcane as of a 'free' trait (like Dextrous) that gives a few spells that aren't overpowering. Magic blade, some damage unead, basic summoning (for summoners, maybe skeletons), the equivalent of create walls, etc. If we do have rituals for powerful magic like ring creation, dragon creation (maybe a tech), we can give these civilizations a discount either for the tech or the ritual.

This topic probably deserves a whole thread.

Best wishes,

Breunor
 
This topic probably deserves a whole thread.

Go ahead and make one ^_^
Your ideas sound pretty good, but I'll discuss them in the relevant thread.
 
@Bruenor: those sound like nice ideas. Raw mana nodes will not appear anyway. What we do with the rest and if we use equipment, projects, resources or something to allow things like ring creation I have no idea yet.

@T_F: okay, okay I grant you that they are boring (second gondor mostly), so maybe we should have them be ranger oriented :)
 
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