Leader Units

[Endovior]

I was just thinking about heroes like Basium and Hyborem, and considering the implications of the leader of a civ being a unit that's actually moving around... (with fond memories of Civ3 Regicide) and then I had an idea.

What if all civs started with a leader unit? That leader would represent you, and would have interesting effects.

Firstly, all leaders should be heroes. Otherwise, you have assassins and such sneaking in and killing them off easy.

Secondly, all leaders should have some sort of decent city-empowering ability (like the Hope/Inspiration type spells, but better). This should vary between leaders, as per individual tastes and balance, but should be good enough to make leaders worth more as leaders then heroes. As such, all leaders should have some sort of global effect (when in a city, they improve all of your cities, not just the one they are in).

Thirdly, the death of the leader should cause prolonged Anarchy, followed by high unhappiness (which will decrease over time).

Thoughts?

 

[Samael]

I mentioned it a while back and I'm in favour of it, as such. It'd apparently ruin some of the uniqueness of the Infernals and Mercurians though, since they get their leader units (though, since neither is playable, and one could argue they'd have the strongest leaders on the map, it wouldn't necessarily damage their flavour)

I always played with Regicide on, though I felt leaders that actually did something (like in the Shoguns scenario) were much better then the 1/1 leaders pf normal regicide, especially since you could upgrade them.

I think assassins should be capable of fighting and killing leaders. I mean, thats their primary job, isn't it? A touch of poison in the right food, hiding in a shadows of a hallway with a blowpipe, climbing through the window of the Royal Chambers at knife with a dagger, surely its their specialty? The only thing really needed would be some kind of counter measure against them to make it relatively fair (eg the Royal Guard or units with a Royal Guard promotion prevent leader being attacked).

City empowerwing skills and either ability with magic or sword or bow or whatever else, are a must.

The death of the leader would cause loss of traits, specifically, though I had an idea that, depending on your status, you'd get one trait back. If, for instance, your nation had a strong religion, you might keep a Spiritual trait and be stuck with more religious civics for a long while or if you had a strong military, Despotism and other Militaristic civics may be enforced after the anarchy, tied with an Aggressive trait.

I can dig up what I wrote on the matter (wrote quite a little bit) if anyone's interested.

 

[Kael]

In effect this has been done with the civ heroes. From a design perspective there is no difference between calling the civ world unit a hero or leader. We just opted for the hero path because:

1. We dont have to deal with the messy diplomacy problems (why is basium still talking to me if I killed him?).

2. It allows us to punish players for losing their Civ world unit without being to heavy handed. We could drop the entire civ into unhappiness if their hero dies, but anyone who has lost their civ hero already knows that it is punishing enough that addition negative consequences arent nessesary.


Plus if we were to do regicide we would want to do it right, im not a big fan for using existing mechanics and calling them something new. I would think a real regicide game should:

1. Be combined with changeable leaders so your leaders are being swapped every so many turns. You government type could effect the type of leaders you have to choose from and the exact process for picking a new leader (maybe aristocracy lets you pick from the old rulers heirs, theocracy allows the selection of a new religious leader, republic allows the populace to vote for a leader without your input).

2. Assassinating a leader would drop the trait benifits as hyborem and basium do now and put the civ into a major period of anarchy. At the end of that anarchy a new leader can be selected as per point 1.

3. AI leaders would have attitudes changed (but still obviously effected by old relations) with new leaders such that it would be benifical for the player to knock off leaders that were opposed to him or extremely effective. The player should also be encouraged to leave weak or acquiesent AI leaders in place.

Of course this would take a large amount of leaders and untis for those leaders to work correctly. Not to mention the SDK and AI work to get this stuff to play well. As such it probably wont be a priority for us but I would love to see a seperate mod that did this, i think it could be great fun.

 

[Endovior]

I think assassins should be capable of fighting and killing leaders. I mean, thats their primary job, isn't it? A touch of poison in the right food, hiding in a shadows of a hallway with a blowpipe, climbing through the window of the Royal Chambers at knife with a dagger, surely its their specialty? The only thing really needed would be some kind of counter measure against them to make it relatively fair (eg the Royal Guard or units with a Royal Guard promotion prevent leader being attacked).

I agree... I'm just saying don't make it too easy for the Assassins. This is implied if the leaders aren't 1/1 wusses; then they have a chance to defend themselves. Other defenses are also appropriate.

I can dig up what I wrote on the matter (wrote quite a little bit) if anyone's interested.

Please do!



Kael: I really like the regicide setup you just outlined there... it sounds like something that would be incredibly awesome to play. I appreciate the amount of work such a thing would take... but such a cool thing should not be left out. Maybe spec it in for Shadow?

 

[Chandrasekhar]

I'd be surprised if no one is working on something like this by now.

 

[Samael]

Since I kind of wrote what I did on the spur of the moment as the ideas hit me, it probably seems poorly refined, loose and probably somewhat pathetic. There's a likelyhood some ideas are essentially out-of-date too. All the same, here's the ideas I originally had on the subject of regicide:

Just to add a little idea of my own; I personally think Regicide (as sort-of mentioned earlier in this topic) would be an interesting victory condition (or at least something that could add to victory) that wouldn't necessarily require there to be a state of war.
The leader of each nation would be represented on the map as a Hero Unit and each could possibly get unique bonuses according to the leader they are (be it a bonus to combat with certain types of units, a +% production bonus to troop training in a city, whatever) as well as some basic bonuses common to all that are present (eg giving a bonus to happiness when present in the city. Not necessarily happiness though, but perhaps 'stability' in some cases. Perhaps a bonus to culture whilst present?).
Akin to the Shogun leaders in the Civ 3 Conquests scenario, the leader would be upgradable throughout the game - depending on what techs are available and what kind of leader they are in the first place (so some turn in to fine warriors, some into Archmages; for instance the upgrades for Sheam leaders might come on the Magic line of tech whilst the upgrades for Hippus' leaders would likely be on the Riding tech line).

The leader could be killed in a variety of ways.

The first is, obviously, in battle. This could cause a Civ to be knocked out of the game and for their cities to go to whoever is culturally dominant there (or whoever has the nearest and largest army nearby). If there is no specific cultural influence from another nation, a city could become Barbarian (or join the ex-Civ's closest allies).

Alternatively, a leader could be assasinated. If an assassin finds the location of the leader, they could then attack them FIRST. There would be a chance, however, that they fail automatically and end up fighting with the strongest unit in the stack (or weakest, depending on whether or not they have Marksmanship which might increase the chance of a confrontation with the leader?). If the Royal Guard are present, success has an incredibly slim chance (unless they have Marksmanship). When all is said and done though, a leader might have some kind of bonuses (through experience or in the nature of the leader themselves) that help them against assassins (some leaders may be more paranoid and invest naturally in traps or be harder to locate whilst others who stay in one place or hang around in the open, flaunting their power may be easier to assasinate). Additionally, buildings (like Castles, Dungeons, Palaces) might lower the assassins chance of success.
If a leader is assassinated, then Anarchy sets in and civil rest occurs throughout the civilization. Cities may flip to other nations or declare themselves independant (Barbarian/Minor Nation?) if they were already unhappy.
A leaderless-civ might survive (apparent heir? hasty elections? coup?) though, dependant on a number of things. If their economy is doing very well (one of richest three nations?), then its decided that the merchants or nobles take over the countries ruling (if available, Aristocracy and/or Consumption civics are switched to with no chance to change for a while? A sort of temporary enforcement). If the nation has a large army (size of army is within top three nations?), then its put under Martial Law (temporary Despotism/Military State?). If a Holy City is present in the nation and the majority of cities have this religion, then the Priesthood take charge (temporary Religion/Theocracy?). Perhaps some others too. If one of these isn't met, the nation is 'dead' and is broken down into independant states (barbarians) or joins other nations.
Because of the loss of leader, a surviving nation would lose its Civ traits (good and bad? Just good?) perhaps? It may gain new ones, dependant on the 'new leadership' though (Financial or Organised for Merchants? Aggressive or Raiders for Military? Spiritual or Philosophical for Clergy?) but only one new trait would be obtained. Seafairing may be untouched for issues of balance?
If a nation DOES survive the assassination or the attempt fails, there is a chance that they can uncover who sent the assassin. If they do, it creates a BIG penalty to diplomacy with that nation (and makes later attempts harder?).

The last ideas I had at the moment for a sort of regicide was through magic or an Armogeddon spell of sorts to control or curse/kill a leader.
Casting the first spell would cause a random leader to gradually come under your control (at the end of a set number of turns, the leader becomes your unit to do with as you please which could then perhaps convert other cities? The nation left behind would become, after a turn or two of 'thinking things are normal?', like that of one who had lost its leader to assassination. This new leader could, of course, be disbanded instantly which would have the same effect. Alternatively, he could also be added in your own civ as a 'super specialist' or, in some civs, put in a cage to bump up the GPP nicely).
Casting the second sort of spell - the curse - would cause a leader at random (or perhaps ALL leaders?) to gradually suffer from a wasting sickness, permanently lowering his strength, little by little, every turn. The presence of various healing buildings in a city - and a High Priest - would slow this process but couldn't reverse it. The only thing that could completely halt the process is a Wonder of sorts, buildable after the curse is set. This wonder would either instantly stop the curse or give a bundle of resources that allow the construction of something incredibly cheap (1 hammer building) that stops it. The advantage of the 'bundle of resources' (say, the wonder gives 6 'cure' recources... and perhaps life mana? or it may require it?) is that these cures could be given to other nations suffering from the curse to stop their leaders dying (which might shift power in an interesting manner). The original 'curse' spell may also provide one or two cures as well so that the one who originally causes it is 'immune' or is in a position of power to trade it off to others so they don't suffer its effects.
A nation that loses its leader to the curse may also suffer unhealthiness in general but may act akin to a nation who's leader is assassinated (and so might remain in the game).

Of course, most of it probably isn't remotely possible and I really shouldn't try imposing anything upon you at all after all the good work you've done so far, but I thought I might try brainstorming a thing or two and see if I did anything useful ^_^;

Perhaps then, still, the Mercurian leader is made to somehow stand out even more? And, as it stands, the Mercurians just suffer a penalty when their leader is lost? So they could, essentially, be 'immune' to regicide? *shrugs*

The only thing I'd like to add to the regicide idea really is that, perhaps, there should be some incentive for the Leader to be moved from outside their greatest citadel at times.
In Civ III, Kings were just fortified as best they could in the capital city and it was practically impossible to ever get at them.
With this, since the Leader provides bonuses and is potentially good in combat, one might at times make their leader vulnerable to attack. For instance if they lead the charge in battle. They may provide a bonus to troops present and fight valiantly but they might still be lost. Or they might move to a frontier city to improve production (perhaps a city could rush production with a Leader present via sacrifice? Not for Good Civs though, of course) and, away from the defences of the Palace and a Castle, they might be picked off by an assassin.

One last thing on Regicide is that a Palace, Castle, Walls, or whatever else might provide the leader with an 'Escape Route'. In a seige, the leader (and perhaps royal guard?) could make use of the Escape Route and appear at a random location nearby the city. If all space within the surrounding eight tiles if filled with an enemy, (or possibly even further out, within the second row or even further out still in the case of Kurioates) then the escape fails. Having slipped out of the city, they'd be 'invisible' essentially and only those with sharp eyes (trained spies, assassins, hawks, etc.) would be able to spot them. After a few of turns of evasion (or if the city falls and the leader if then found to be missing), this invisibility would be lost and the leader would very quickly become a target.

Just more ideas as they come to me ^_^;

 

[Endovior]

It seems to me like a lot of this could be worked into existing material (to reduce difficulty of implementation).

There are already units that give interesting effects while in a city... from Loki, to Spirit/Mind Mages, to Guardsmen. Leaders should be similar... only they provide a global bonus and a local bonus, like some wonders.

Also, it could be very easy to curse a leader with magic... whether it's a spell like Wither, or something really nasty like Typhoid Mary. There are existing curative options, as well.

 

[Mesix]

I think that leader units are a great idea.

To make them even better, they should have a chance to sire heirs to create a dynasty! Leader units should improve over time like heroes do, but improvement should be faster if they are in power (i.e. fortified in a city). To balance their in game effects, leader units should have a limited life-span. When the leader dies (either of natural causes or in combat) a surviving heir will take over. Perhaps there could be a period of anarch when the leader dies (which would add both flavor and balance).

Leader units should have upgrades available that allow them to give bonuses to the city they are in (+% happiness, commerce, production, research, etc.) or the units they are stacked with (+% attack, defense, movement, etc.). The leader should be more valuable for the effects they generate than as an individual combat unit (which would make them quite different from existing heroes).

Perhaps a civ could be destroyed by killing the leader and all surviving heirs! Alternately, a longer period of anarchy could ensue when the last heir dies until a new leader comes to start his dynasty (random chance each turn).

 

[eerr]

...
...
Also, it could be very easy to curse a leader with magic... whether it's a spell like Wither, or something really nasty like Typhoid Mary. There are existing curative options, as well.

if someone can sneak a magic user or typhoid mary into the middle of your civ-your doomed regicide or not

 

[Endovior]

if someone can sneak a magic user or typhoid mary into the middle of your civ-your doomed regicide or not

Not really... if your capital is coastal, for example, then they can just go by on a ship... this is the most likely possibility, given that many players (and often the AI) neglect naval defenses.

 

[eerr]

Not really... if your capital is coastal, for example, then they can just go by on a ship... this is the most likely possibility, given that many players (and often the AI) neglect naval defenses.

uhh, then don't put him in a coastal capitol?
put him out to see in the icy north pole and let your enemies frantically search your lands?(inland if not a water heavy map)

 

[Mesix]

uhh, then don't put him in a coastal capitol?
put him out to see in the icy north pole and let your enemies frantically search your lands?(inland if not a water heavy map)

If you put your leader far away from your cities you will not enjoy the bonus that he gives. In other words, there would be an incentive to leave him in your capital and heirs in your home cities.

 

[Endovior]

Exactly. Leaders are supposed to rule your civ, and they can't do that from a ship in the middle of nowhere. The global bonus applies only while he's in a city, so that's the bare minimum... but the local bonus is important to, so you should put him where it'll be used best. Plus, if you're keeping your leader on a ship in the middle of the polar ice cap, then random pirates will slay him.

*Considers current-game exploration pattern*

Actually, MY pirates will slay him!

 

[eerr]

If you put your leader far away from your cities you will not enjoy the bonus that he gives. In other words, there would be an incentive to leave him in your capital and heirs in your home cities.

if its what you need to do to protect your leader, you will probably do it.
so the incentive to keep your leader in danger would have to be rather significant?
-what kind of bonus/boni would this be?

 

[BCalchet]

Hmm... there are already global bonuses for having leaders - they're usually called 'traits'.

Not getting to use those when the leader is dead or off sailing somewhere sounds about right.

 

[eerr]

Hmm... there are already global bonuses for having leaders - they're usually called 'traits'.

Not getting to use those when the leader is dead or off sailing somewhere sounds about right.

any specific location?
within a city?
within capitol?
within friendly cultural borders?
-i was also thinking of a more local bonus, such as to cities more specific to a leader

as well, i though bonuses from leaders wouldn't matter as they would be regicide only and losing the leader couldn't have a loss of traits without losing the game anyway

 

[Endovior]

That's not what I meant. I'm seeing traits as more then just a leader thing directly... they represent the leader's goals affecting his adminstration, and those in turn affecting the nation as a whole. For example, Flauros is Organized, reducing maintanance costs. This is not because he does all the paperwork for the entirety of the Calabim Empire in his spare time. This is because he carefully selects the most loyal and capable administrators from the host of lesser vampires, appointing them to positions of authority and letting them do the day-to-day work. As such, the empire's maintainance cost shouldn't spike when he travels.

On the other hand, when he's actively running things, there should be an additional bonus... I'd suggest the following, as an example.

Local Bonus: -100% Maintainance
(Flauros tends to personally manage any city he resides in. His ruthless efficiency tends to keep costs down to a minimum... as inefficient or corrupt workers soon become meals. The city Flauros resides in has no maintainance cost.)

Global Bonus: +1 per City
(Flauros takes an active hand in trade, maintaining an active trade network amongst all his cities. All cities connected to the city Flauros resides in generate additional commerce.)