dutchking
Deity
- Joined
- Apr 30, 2007
- Messages
- 3,317
Psh, I'm not religious. "Spiritual" would be the closest to an adjective of "religious" that would apply to me.
I was talking about the avatar...
Leaders that shouldn't be there!
- Thread starter GenocideBringer
- Start date
I was talking about the avatar...
Peng Qi
Emperor
Does that make you a private eye?I was talking about the avatar...
No, I'm was saying that we weren't "getting along just fine" in the last 10'000 years. Contrary to what you said above.
Social Saftey nets are part of a myriad of laws and programs that protect the lower and middle classes from the tyrany of the rich. Which is the natural state of labor in a society.
A lot of people can't or won't save for emergency or retirment, do they deserve to live in the street?
What if one's savings are scammed or stolen, do they deserve to eat at the soup kitchen?
If someone has a tragedy that forces them out of the workforce, should they learn how to beg?
I wouldn't want to live in a society like that. That's why social saftey nets are necessary. Fortunately most agree with me.
Peng Qi
Emperor
I don't think that slavery is really any better or worse than working 9-5 every weekday for almost your entire life. Sure, there were a few exceptions where slave owners treated their slaves very very poorly, but for the most part they were basically just treated like minimum-wage workers are treated today. Do your job, and you'll have food and shelter.
Except most of them have the net effect of keeping poor people poor, since the taxes levied to pay for these programs make increasing your affluence next to impossible. It's a tough choice: a more comfortable bottom-rung existence or a less comfortable one but with the possibility to escape. Which would you choose?
Yes. If you refuse to save for retirement, you deserve to suffer the consequences for not doing so.
If they're scammed? Yes. If they're stolen? No, but who should be the one to pay for the theft?
No, most companies have disability pay. It may be sensible to require all companies to have it by law.
Slaves in primative societies had it just as good as 9-5ers in today's western societies. 
The 9-5 work day comes to us compliments of the labor movement of the late 19th/early 20th century. As does the weekend, overtime pay, sick pay, paid vacation, safe work conditions, medical benefits...and the list goes on.
Don't delude yourself into think that Peasents, Slaves, Serfs, the working poor etc got the same kind of benefits you and I enjoy.
-12-16 hour work days were not uncommon
-no opportunity to advance
-retirement was out of the question
-vacation was out of the question
-saftey and health standards were non-existant. You'd be lucky to have a window in most 19th century factories.
-no legal recourse if you were wronged by your employer
In a lot of ways being a slave/serf was more favorable than being free, because as such nobody had any incentive to keep you alive. At least as a slave you're the property of someone and as such they have finacial reason to keep you from starving when there was no work...assuming you're still healthy enough to work.
What? I don't know what history book you get your information from, but from what I've read the social mobility in this country got easier after the Social Reforms of FDR/Truman were passed.
If taxes for social programs are so detrimental to class mobility than countries with higher taxes like France, England and Canada would have worse mobility, but in actually they have better. On top of that you would assume with the lowering of taxes in the 80s, you'd have an increase of social mobility, but actually just he opposite happened.
Take a look at this study: http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/national/20050515_CLASS_GRAPHIC/index_03.html
So if your mother was foolish and didn't save for retirement, you'd let her live in a dumpster?
And convient how you just skipped the word 'can't'
Even if they are retarted or they have Alzheimer's or other mental diseases?
How about the people who lost their entire retirement funds when Enron went bankrupt should they be forced to keep working because they were unfortunate to work for a company that broke the law?
Well my answer would be society should help the guy out in the form of a social saftey net.
Disability pay is required by law, but it only applies if you get hurt on the job.
If you lose a leg in a car accident and are forced out of the work force, then you go on social security...which you think should be done away with.
Look, I understand how you feel. In an idealisic 'you reap what you sow' sort of world, I'd agree with you. However there are far too many variables, and life just isn't fair.
You could be the best planner in the world, but you never know what life is going to throw at you. The fact of the matter is, sometimes you just get screwed. I believe we need to have a social saftey net in order to pick up those people. You belive they'er on thier own.
I'm sorry but I just wouldn't want to live in your world, and fortunately, most people agree with me.
The 9-5 work day comes to us compliments of the labor movement of the late 19th/early 20th century. As does the weekend, overtime pay, sick pay, paid vacation, safe work conditions, medical benefits...and the list goes on.
Don't delude yourself into think that Peasents, Slaves, Serfs, the working poor etc got the same kind of benefits you and I enjoy.
-12-16 hour work days were not uncommon
-no opportunity to advance
-retirement was out of the question
-vacation was out of the question
-saftey and health standards were non-existant. You'd be lucky to have a window in most 19th century factories.
-no legal recourse if you were wronged by your employer
In a lot of ways being a slave/serf was more favorable than being free, because as such nobody had any incentive to keep you alive. At least as a slave you're the property of someone and as such they have finacial reason to keep you from starving when there was no work...assuming you're still healthy enough to work.
What? I don't know what history book you get your information from, but from what I've read the social mobility in this country got easier after the Social Reforms of FDR/Truman were passed.
If taxes for social programs are so detrimental to class mobility than countries with higher taxes like France, England and Canada would have worse mobility, but in actually they have better. On top of that you would assume with the lowering of taxes in the 80s, you'd have an increase of social mobility, but actually just he opposite happened.
Take a look at this study: http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/national/20050515_CLASS_GRAPHIC/index_03.html
So if your mother was foolish and didn't save for retirement, you'd let her live in a dumpster?
And convient how you just skipped the word 'can't'
Even if they are retarted or they have Alzheimer's or other mental diseases?
How about the people who lost their entire retirement funds when Enron went bankrupt should they be forced to keep working because they were unfortunate to work for a company that broke the law?
Well my answer would be society should help the guy out in the form of a social saftey net.
Disability pay is required by law, but it only applies if you get hurt on the job.
If you lose a leg in a car accident and are forced out of the work force, then you go on social security...which you think should be done away with.
Look, I understand how you feel. In an idealisic 'you reap what you sow' sort of world, I'd agree with you. However there are far too many variables, and life just isn't fair.
You could be the best planner in the world, but you never know what life is going to throw at you. The fact of the matter is, sometimes you just get screwed. I believe we need to have a social saftey net in order to pick up those people. You belive they'er on thier own.
I'm sorry but I just wouldn't want to live in your world, and fortunately, most people agree with me.
Peng Qi
Emperor
12-16 hour work days actually were pretty uncommon until real hardline slavery took hold during Triangle Trade. Roman slaves, for example, were usually treated very very well with the exception of the ones that were doing punishment work like salt mining. Slaves did have the opportunity to advance and were frequently freed even during hardline slavery; many successful businesses in ancient Rome were started by ex-slaves. Serfs were the primary victims in terms of advancement opportunity, and yet they were the primary beneficiaries of their lords going out of their way to protect them and keep them healthy; as long as they got a reasonable amount of food out of the ground, they were well-treated and could take as much time off as would not realistically cut into their productivity. The legal recourse and safety issues were solved under Teddy Roosevelt and no further reform was needed; FDR went way overboard.Slaves in primative societies had it just as good as 9-5ers in today's western societies.
The 9-5 work day comes to us compliments of the labor movement of the late 19th/early 20th century. As does the weekend, overtime pay, sick pay, paid vacation, safe work conditions, medical benefits...and the list goes on.
Don't delude yourself into think that Peasents, Slaves, Serfs, the working poor etc got the same kind of benefits you and I enjoy.
-12-16 hour work days were not uncommon
-no opportunity to advance
-retirement was out of the question
-vacation was out of the question
-saftey and health standards were non-existant. You'd be lucky to have a window in most 19th century factories.
-no legal recourse if you were wronged by your employer
No, it got easier after the social reforms of Teddy, or have you forgotten the Roaring Twenties? Unless you mean that social mobility was easier after World War II than it was during the Great Depression that FDR's reforms artificially lengthened.
Got stats?
Uhhh, did you or did you not notice that the link you yourself provided showed that the tax cuts of the 80's actually DID increase social mobility?
Yep.
Yep. It's evolution.
It's not fair, but it's even less fair to ask other people to foot the bill for them.
My answer would be that his kids should take care of him just like he took care of them for two decades.
If you hurt yourself, it's your fault. If someone else hurt you, they should pay your upkeep and medical bills until you're better.
Miles Teg
Nuclear Powered Mentat
Wait. What? Serf hood involved being knee deep in the alimentary track of the local livestock, or trying to hide the the body of that *special* deer you weren't allowed to kill that kept eating the crops. When in gods name did medieval lords turn into long term planners? The average life of a serf in the 13th century involved the word thirty!
Peng Qi
Emperor
And what was the average lifespan of a lord, praytell? Who went out to fight the Golden Horde when they invaded from the east? I'll give you a hint: it wasn't massive peasant armies.
I'm sure given the chance you'd go back in time and trade places with a Roman slave
As I was said
Many of those reforms that Teddy brought about were undermined during the 20s. The labor movement was completely repressed because of the Espionage Act and the Sedition Act of 1918. The wealth created during that period didn't really affect the working class, and was created primarly by laissez faire economic policies, and we know how that ended.
Yea, check the link I posted.
Uhhh, no it didn't. (Hint: Click the next button twice)
I'm sure you and Scrooge would get along fine.
Hopefully for him, you're not his son.
Go live in the dumpster you clumby dumbass!
First, the legal system isn't perfect and occasionally someone with a better lawyer can get out of paying for accidents, or keep it tied up in court so long it doesn't matter.
Second, a lot of accidents are labed 'acts of god' and fault isn't attributed to anyone.
Third, the offending party could be dead, criminal , or simply unable to pay.
In any of the above situations...you're screwed.
Peng Qi,
You are either a troll or a horrible human being.
If you are a troll, I must applaud your Troll-Fu, for it is strong.
If you are serious, you are the most selfish and miserly person I've ever had the misfortune of crossing. Please, go DIAF. No seriously, drop dead.
You are either a troll or a horrible human being.
If you are a troll, I must applaud your Troll-Fu, for it is strong.
If you are serious, you are the most selfish and miserly person I've ever had the misfortune of crossing. Please, go DIAF. No seriously, drop dead.
Peng Qi
Emperor
I may be selfish and miserly when it comes to money, but at least I know how to treat individuals with respect until they give me a reason to do otherwise besides "he's not just like me, what the heck?!?"
CorneliusScipio
Chieftain
- Joined
- Jul 26, 2007
- Messages
- 11
Wait, wait. Treating people with respect? Letting someone get scammed if they have Alzheimer's because "it's evolution" is treating people with respect? The hell?
Peng Qi
Emperor
Wait, when did I say that I would let someone get scammed because they have Alzheimer's? I do believe I said that I shouldn't be responsible for replacing such a person's lost money, but I don't recall ever saying that I'd "let them get scammed."
Peng Qi
Emperor
No, I'd be happy to give money to someone who I feel has earned it or deserves it for other reasons. Unfortunately, the government doesn't screen people for morality before they approve them for social security.
Peng Qi
Emperor
Oh yes; this single piece of information about me (that I don't believe in forcing people to donate money to people they don't even know) is enough to conclusively prove that I have no morals of any kind.Lucky for you
Legal_My_Deagle
Warlord
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2002
- Messages
- 215
Doc Brown needs to drive the Deloreon on to your lawn and tell you "GREAT SCOTT! Time to go and trade places with a slave in the ancient world!"
lol dude are you serious? You as a slave? Really? Thats rich! You wouldn't last 2 days in the ancient world, let alone as a slave. Haha, wow.
At least it would be funny, for everybody that was not you. If you ARE serious though, you are doing a horrible job of sounding intelligent, despite your best efforts.
lol dude are you serious? You as a slave? Really? Thats rich! You wouldn't last 2 days in the ancient world, let alone as a slave. Haha, wow.
At least it would be funny, for everybody that was not you. If you ARE serious though, you are doing a horrible job of sounding intelligent, despite your best efforts.
