Leaders that shouldn't be there!

Nah....it'd be Dubya. But lets not go into that as you said.:mischief:
No, it really wouldn't. If you think that, it only belies a complete lack of historical perspective.

I mean, anyone who thinks President Bush is bad would absolutely loathe President Andrew Jackson, who was like Bush times a million. He actually invented the spoils system rather than just using it, and he blatantly ignored supreme court mandates rather than just doing things that stupid people think are unconstitutional but that higher courts consistently back up.
 
The one truly bad choice, in my modest opinion, is Montezuma, also known as Moctezuma II. Why oh why was he picked over Moctezuma I (who's real name was possibly Ilhuicamina) is beyond me.
Why chose Montezuma, who inherited an Empire at its height and essentially dropped the ball when it came time to defend it over the ruler who expanded it the most is simply mind boggling. What the heck were the Firaxis guys even thinking? That's kinda like choosing Richard Nixon as the premiere American leader!
:rolleyes:


Hmm, it seems like your analogy took the focus away from your main point. However, I totally agree that Monty was too much of a loser to be an in-game leader. Having him lead the aztecs is like:
Atahualpa of the Incans
Constantine XI of the Byzantines
Mehmed VI of the Ottomans
Nicolai II of the Russians
Louis XVI or Napoleon of the French
Cleopatra VII of the Egyptians (even worse since she wasn't even Egyptian to begin with).
Romulus Augustus of the (Western) Romans
Harold Godwinson of the English






anyway, on an unrelated note, I love your stories.:goodjob:
 
No, it really wouldn't. If you think that, it only belies a complete lack of historical perspective.

I mean, anyone who thinks President Bush is bad would absolutely loathe President Andrew Jackson, who was like Bush times a million. He actually invented the spoils system rather than just using it, and he blatantly ignored supreme court mandates rather than just doing things that stupid people think are unconstitutional but that higher courts consistently back up.

Well, you didn't have to call me stupid just because I'm not on the up and up about Andrew Jackson.:(

Admittedly, I have a thing against Bush for many reasons, among them being he's made my job and life a lot harder. (Army) But again, I don't want to derail the thread.

To be on topic, I can't think of any leaders that shouldn't be thereoff the bat, with the exception of Tokugawa. I'd like to see a second japanese leader that actually does something.
 
Constantine XI of the Byzantines
Constantine XI was a great leader, he was just born into unfortunate circumstance. You know he's a saint in the Eastern Orthodox church?
Well, you didn't have to call me stupid just because I'm not on the up and up about Andrew Jackson.:(
I didn't I just said you don't have a good historical perspective. You could have just never had the opportunity to learn about presidents.
 
Constantine XI was a great leader, he was just born into unfortunate circumstance. You know he's a saint in the Eastern Orthodox church?



Hmm, I must admit to basing that list on superficial criteria.;)
 
No, it really wouldn't. If you think that, it only belies a complete lack of historical perspective.

I mean, anyone who thinks President Bush is bad would absolutely loathe President Andrew Jackson, who was like Bush times a million. He actually invented the spoils system rather than just using it, and he blatantly ignored supreme court mandates rather than just doing things that stupid people think are unconstitutional but that higher courts consistently back up.

Andrew Jackson eliminated the central bank... Also the spoils system was set up by him as an attempt to reduce corruption. Not encourage it. Too bad it got misused AFTER his presidency.

Not to mention that he's the only president to ever pay of the national debt.
 
^^ yep, its based on historical recognition. Montezuma was a crappy Aztec leader, but he's the only one we know because the Spanish burned the ancient writings as heresy. Same goes for Huyana Capac, except he was less crappy than Montezuma and the Inca never had Writing so we can't read back about previous leaders. I don't know anything about Pacal II, my Mayan history is a little sketch... It's not the best leaders in history, it's the ones wwe remember... like Stalin. :)

Are you serious? The Spanish burnt many ancient writings, but the details behind these leaders is FAR from sketchy.

For the Aztec and Maya, a few priests were nice enough to smuggle some of their writings home. Along with this, the Spanish couldn't destroy the stone carved writings on the numerous ruins scattered across all of mesoamerica, and that left a very vivid record of their history behind. In fact despite your strange belief that the Spanish destroyed all of the Nahuatl (The Aztec) language, they managed to leave behind enough to create numerous books of Nahuatl poetry. Due to this there's a great amount of information about every leader of the brief Aztec empire, including their parents, children, etc. If you bothered to pick up a book talking about this, you'd see just what a wealth of knowledge there is.

As for the Inca, they didn't have writing, but they had something even better, something that the Spanish really couldn't burn. The bureaucracy was FILLED with over one hundred thousand people who's sole duty in life was to memorize their own history, and recite it word for word. Due to this Inca history was vividly recorded, as well as the history of numerous other tribes and empires in the Andes. This is also why Felipe Guaman Poma de Ayala was able to compile such a MASSIVE body of work in Inca history, and why scholars still use his work to this day to explore Inca history. And don't think 'well memory isn't very good for recording history', as if you did further research you'd figure out that the Inca history as recorded then was so strict and at times on the dot that it has been confirmed by archaeological evidence.

I'm sorry for being so mean, but your blunt ignorance of pre-Columbian cultures kind of hit a nerve in me.

The one truly bad choice, in my modest opinion, is Montezuma, also known as Moctezuma II. Why oh why was he picked over Moctezuma I (who's real name was possibly Ilhuicamina) is beyond me.
Why chose Montezuma, who inherited an Empire at its height and essentially dropped the ball when it came time to defend it over the ruler who expanded it the most is simply mind boggling. What the heck were the Firaxis guys even thinking? That's kinda like choosing Richard Nixon as the premiere American leader!
:rolleyes:

And yes, surprise surprise I am actually going to come to Moctezuma II's defense here. First a lot of you are studying the wrong history on this guy. The Spanish, after defeating the Aztec, gave a very different account of Moctezuma than the Aztecs did, so different that it feels like the Spanish's record of the guy was there for propaganda purposes. The Spanish viewed him as a fearful, weak-willed, and selfish, supersitious ruler, who was easily killed when he viewed the Spanish as gods and gave them all his trust, and even, in a widely misread speech given by Moctezuma, offered his throne to the Spanish. In fact the Spanish even said that his own people killed him.

On the other hand the Aztec recorded him as a highly religious and industrious warrior, who trusted the Spanish, and actually showed his superiority over the Spanish in that widely misread speech--in Nahuatl language, being overtly polite, and offering your home to someone, actually means you're basically saying you're the superior, dominant one here, because they 'can't offer a home of their own' or 'you're accepting my home over your own'. This was done regularly as a way to see if the other would submit, and acts a form of diplomacy. If they accepted, they're basically saying they're under the one who offered it. So in a way when Cortez accepted the offer, he was basically saying the Spanish empire is inferior. I personally think Cortez used knowledge of this custom to get Moctezuma in a vulnerable situation, but that's up to debate. As for him being a stupid leader, Moctezuma II actually expanded the empire just as much as Moctezuma I did, and Moctezuma II embarked on numerous large scale building projects, and under his reign the Aztec started making headway in some of their scientific and architectural discoveries. He even fine tuned the compulsory education in his empire--yes, every male in the empire had to go to school until they were 16--and expanded the Aztec church so well that the Spanish had an incredible amount of trouble spreading Christianity into the former empire even after complete defeat--and to this day, some Nahuatl speakers refuse to accept Christianity. Oh yeah, the Aztec accounts say the SPANISH murdered Moctezuma in the end, and then fled the city like cowards.
 
Andrew Jackson eliminated the central bank... Also the spoils system was set up by him as an attempt to reduce corruption. Not encourage it. Too bad it got misused AFTER his presidency.

Not to mention that he's the only president to ever pay of the national debt.
Oh I'm not saying he was bad. I like him. It's just difficult to think Bush is a bad president without also thinking Jackson was worse.
 
They did that in Civ III.
And in Civ Revolutions it seems.

Arggh! Please don't mention Revolutions! It's embarassing enough that Sid is actually selling out to the public! Don't rub it in! What if the Mainstreamers come here complaing about how the real Civ is "too hard" or "boring"? I tell you what, I might just...... :vomit:
 
Granted, I probably shouldn't have picked Nixon in my analogy. He was a popular president, pre-Watergate, and did make a few noteworthy accomplishments, like his breakthrough in Chinese-US relations (That was him, right?).
I was only looking for the "worst possible" American president and didn't want to name Dubya, lest the conversation degenerate into off-topic ramblings regarding modern politics.
But I don't know enough of American history to pick a "least worthy president to be a civ leader." William Henry Harrison, maybe? Really, I don't know, and it doesn't really matter. come to think of it, no American President failed his people the way Montezuma failed his.
I did say comparing leaders and civs was like comparing apples and oranges... and it seems I fell into my own trap, lol! :rolleyes:

Anyhow, all I meant is that Montezuma is the worst possible leader choice for the Aztecs.

Hi

I think U.S. Grants gets rated as one of the worst if not THE worst presidents by lots of people. Mainly because he tended to give cabinet postions to anyone he was war buddies/friends with whether they were actually qualified for the job or not and then let them do whatever they wanted so there was LOTS of corruption/incompetence under his watch.

As for Andrew Jackson. I dont know if he was the WORST president or even a bad president for his time period. I definitely wouldnt want someone like him president now though. But he is definitely one of the MOST fun presidents to read about. I mean any president who has killed people in duels gets major cool points hehe. And things like Peggy Eaton was kind of sweet in one way and kind of scary that something like that was affecting how the country was being run to some degree in another. Even fact that he wasnt most literate president ever is kind of fun. Some say the term O.K. comes from him. They say he would mark documents he read and apporved with the initials OK which stood for "Oll Keerect" and he also gets credit for one of my fave quotes of all time which is "I have no respect for someone who can't think of more than one way to spell a word" hehe.

Kaytie
 
Wasn't Napoleon similar to Hitler??
Then why he is in the game and Hitler isn't??
 
Well, Napoleon's a Dementia-ridden Freemason and Hitler's a mass murderer with a stupid mustache. And they both started useless wars. That's how, Luso.
 
Hmm, it seems like your analogy took the focus away from your main point. However, I totally agree that Monty was too much of a loser to be an in-game leader. Having him lead the aztecs is like: Constantine XI of the Byzantines

That's a bad comparison. By the time Constantine XI took the throne, Byzantium was already in a losing position and there was nothing he could do to stop it. If anything, he courageously defended Constantinople so it went down with a graceful boom instead of a whisper. His courage to die protecting the faith convinced a lot of Western nations to take up arms against Turkey.
 
Tht's true. Darius III was in the same situation.
 
Wasn't Napoleon similar to Hitler??
Then why he is in the game and Hitler isn't??

Napoleon was a Tyrant but he didn't engage in the systematic slaughter of an entire race.
 
Tht's true. Darius III was in the same situation.

That I disagree with. He could've defeated Alexander if he was just a better leader. There was nothing Constantine XI could've done.
 
That's a bad comparison. By the time Constantine XI took the throne, Byzantium was already in a losing position and there was nothing he could do to stop it. If anything, he courageously defended Constantinople so it went down with a graceful boom instead of a whisper. His courage to die protecting the faith convinced a lot of Western nations to take up arms against Turkey.


My bad, it was a bad comparison.:blush:
 
That I disagree with. He could've defeated Alexander if he was just a better leader. There was nothing Constantine XI could've done.

Not true! He was a peaceful leader and was no good at war! He could have saved Persia from desrtoying itself if it weren't for Alexander! He was a victim of fate, nothing else.
 
Well, the British themselves voted that Churchill was the greatest British Person to have ever lived, irrespective of field. That's above the two (edit:three including boudica) english/british queens in the game, Shakespeare, Darwin, Newton etc. OK, they voted Diana in 3rd, but that's still gotta mean something.

Well it helps that he only died in 1965. :rolleyes: And the fact that Diana is in 3rd SAYS IT ALL. I mean great lady, really, really great lady but above Elizabeth and Victoria? Hmm... Not sure about that.

Anyway, that's why it doesn't mean anything.
 
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