Leaders that you would not want to have in civ 7 (until you think about it and they are strangely appealing)

Yu Gwan-sun and Heo Nanseolhan are poor leader choices in my opinion. A 17 year old Korean independence activist girl who was murdered by the Japanese and some Joseon poet/painter?

I oppose Yu Gwan-Sun for the same reason as Jeanne d'Arc. They aren't adults. I know we had some pretty young leaders in Civ before. But those make sense. These two make more sense as Great People.
 
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Guandao said:
Yu Gwan-sun and Heo Nanseolhan are poor leader choices in my opinion. A 17 year old Korean girl who was murdered by Japanese and some Joseon poet?
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I agree that they are not the best options for the leaders in the game, but at least they are better than Seondeok. I prefer to see the leader who did their own historical movement than who just ruled by their bloodline but achieved not so much.

And that is not even the point of my post. I talked about that it is unfair to regard all who disagree to Seondeok as the hating males, and those two may be better than Seondeok when FXS really want to pick the Korean female leader - while IDK why we have to do it. Korean people deserve to represented by their greatest time and the leaders who conducted it, rather than "oh there is a mysterious queen who has some stories".
 
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But how are those two better than Seondeok?

I guess Korea will always be represented by Joseon and Sejong every game then, if you guys want to see your "greatest time period" for each Civ game.
 
Guandao said:
But how are those two better than Seondeok?
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I want to ask it first that how are those three better than any other candidates beside they are women, all of them are not my favorite options.

After that, I said I prefer who did their own somethings than who did not.

Guandao said:
I guess Korea will always be represented by Joseon and Sejong every game then, if you guys want to see your "greatest time period" for each Civ game.
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We Korean have standed here always and experienced rises and falls - quite a lot.

Gwanggaeto the Great built the powerful Goguryeo empire which was remembered as who defeated Chinese armies include Sui by all the Chinese dynasies after it.

King Jinheung, King Muyeol, King Munmu and General Kim Yusin are the famous Silla leaders who constructed the strong dynasty which finally unified the Three Kingdoms of Korea and standed a thousand years.

And you already met Taejo Wang Geon of Goryeo at Civ 3/4. The name of Korea itself was come from Goryeo, which was the remarkable global player not only in the East Asia during the divided period of China but also in the world with their well-known ginseng and pottery.

I think that there's no need to explain about Joseon with Sejong the Great and Admiral Yi Sunsin, isn't it?

I strongly think nobody can say to others that "I don't know the most part of your history, so it's meaningless."
 
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Plugging my niche favorite Chinese emperor, Huizong of Song; consummate sophisticate polymath who spent his lifetime indulging in culture and luxury. He had immense personal talent in arts and music, collecting and creating thousands of paintings, instruments, and pieces of calligraphy. Most notably, he created a signature new style of "slender-gold" calligraphy, and during his reign, new styles of painting such as the "blue-green landscape" gained popularity under his patronage.

As a leader, he proclaimed his imperial legitimacy through his promotion of art and Taoism. He established court examinations specifically for artists and established the 萬琴堂 (10,000 Harp Hall) and the 翰林畫院 (Hanlin Painting House) to expand the influence and technique of these arts. Over the course of his reign he sent hundreds of complex new musical instruments to tributary states, including over 400 instruments to the Goryeo court, helping expand the influence of Song court music abroad. In another move of the imperial might via culture, he performed recastings of ancient Shang-dynasty imperial bronzes.

His reign ended with complete failures to respond to Jurchen invasions from the north. The Jurchens were originally a subject tribe of the Liao Dynasty, who formed their own Jin Dynasty against the Liao. Huizong and his Song court originally allied with the Jin rebellion to topple the Liao completely - but during these military maneuvers the Jin observed the weaknesses of the Song dynasty and subsequently broke the alliance and turned against the Song. Huizong was captured, and abdicated for his son to assume the throne; the Song surrendered northern territories to the Jurchen-led Jin and escaped to the South, thus marking the transition between the "Northern Song" and the "Southern Song".

Mechanics

While the Song dynasty at its peak was probably one of the more scientific focused dynasties (in Civ categorization), I like Huizong for his controversial "porcelain tower" reign, choosing to revel in sophistication and opulence, becoming truly influential on future Chinese art on his own personal talent and imperial patronage, while mismanaging military campaigns that ultimately toppled his dynasty's power and led him to die in captivity.

I see him as a similar character to Civ 6 Eleanor of Aquitaine, with major bonuses to the creation and collection of Great Works, exporting culture and religion through trade, and maybe even giving some maluses to military. In the same way that Eleanor's kit kind of invented a completely new pacifist domination-via-culture playstyle, I could see a similar thing with Huizong of Song. I'm not sure if the Loyalty system is carried over into 7 but maybe Huizong can have major interplay between culture and diplo that enables him to engage with those systems in a novel way that makes him overpowered in that field but weak and exposed to military invasion.
 
gdr_willter said:
Quite a bit? Because of all 15 years only with the single Cheomseongdae which started from her father's reign? You are really doing this wrong only to defend her.


Kaesong Chomsongdae - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

And let's be more accurate, we hardly know about the real purpose the Silla Cheomseongdae. However, the Goryeo Cheomseongdae was really the observatory for the astronomical and meteorological purpose.


Seondeok did not overcome it because she died during the rebellion. Kim Chunchu (again) repressed the rebels on the reign of Jindeok.

Many beutiful stories about her just created by the Budhists who protected by her. You really think Taizong recognized her because of her poem about the flowers without butterflies? Silla-Tang relationship was mainly constructed by efforts of the diplomat Kim Chunchu (again).


Building giant temple during the long-lasting war is not a conduct by the wise leader, especially when they are defeating. I prefer Hwangnyongsa itself as the Wonder in the game, not her as the leader.


You asked people's gender? Not a few Korean female gamers also don't want to see the western game studios consider they satisfied the Korean females with Seondeok. They want to be represented by more proper womens - like Yu Gwansun, Heo Nanseolheon, and so on. But the hardest point is the shortage of the female monarchs in the Korean history, it leads many media to the temptation of well-known queen Seondeok.

I told you that she failed at war (Silla lost a lot of fortresses in her reign) and she did not put down the rebellion because she died first. Of course the political leaders have to be served by the militaristic supporters, but they have to foresee the war and diplomatics widely and lead the warfare correctly. Seondeok did none of them well, so you can't compare her with the others.


You're lying to yourself with the fantasy about the great-winning leader Seondeok, that's why you consider all your opposite as "hater". Okay, I also don't feel the necessity to pursuade you anymore.
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I'm going to point out only big glaring historical inaccuracies with your report since other opinions like "failed at war" we could argue about forever (though the historical record, including by Kim Bushik, is clear on Seondeok's record as a capable leader).

First of all, the Goryeo "Cheomseongdae" is not the first one, so arguing you hardly know its purpose when it's named after the Silla observatory is disingenuous. If the Goryeo one was named after the earlier observatory, and had an observatory as a purpose, then it's silly to argue "well, we don't know what the original one was for" particularly given historical consensus it had astrological significance.

Secondly, Seondeok died of illness, and wasn't killed by the rebels. The rebels were executed and Korea continued to have female rulers contrary to Bidam's wishes (Bidam couldn't wish for much though, since he was executed LOL). Arguing that a leader died during a military action and therefore was unsuccessful is foolish. That's like saying Yi Sunshin was a failure because he died in his last naval battle. And even in Yi's case, he died during battle due to enemy action, whereas Seondeok died of a longstanding illness she had (and it's only historical fiction novels that reframe it otherwise; heck, even the Seondeok K-drama was more accurate at least on the cause of Seondeok's death being illness).

You are an exemplar of the kind of misogynistic thinking that motivated Bidam and his followers. History follows a pattern and nothing under the sun is new. Check the historical record, including by Kim Bushik (who didn't approve of female leaders yet ironically said much that shows Seondeok was a capable leader). Thankfully many Koreans don't share your attitude, and it's just the lonely Korean male misogynists that share your views.

Guandao said:
Yu Gwan-sun and Heo Nanseolhan are poor leader choices in my opinion. A 17 year old Korean independence activist girl who was murdered by the Japanese and some Joseon poet/painter?

I oppose Yu Gwan-Sun for the same reason as Jeanne d'Arc. They aren't adults. I know we had some pretty young leaders in Civ before. But those make sense. These two make more sense as Great People.
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Exactly. They are definitely worse than Seondeok as they weren't rulers in any political sense (Confucius had more administrative and leadership experience than those too combined).
 
Morningcalm said:
You are an exemplar of the kind of misogynistic thinking that motivated Bidam and his followers. History follows a pattern and nothing under the sun is new. Check the historical record, including by Kim Bushik (who didn't approve of female leaders yet ironically said much that shows Seondeok was a capable leader). Thankfully many Koreans don't share your attitude, and it's just the lonely Korean male misogynists that share your views.
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Oh come on. You exactly ignored the most important historical fact that Seondeok lose a lot of battles in the wars around her country. Search about the Battle of Daeyaseong, and the result of it. This situation was continued until even the early period of the King Muyeol's reign and finally reversed at the reign of King Munmu. You are claiming that the National Institute of Korean History is the hater and misogynist, really?

우리역사넷

contents.history.go.kr contents.history.go.kr

Okay, just stop this meaningless things ever. Live in your fantasy.
 
I like you ignored all my points. I will therefore ignore your single point in the post above.

You talk of fantasy? Your fantasy is that Seondeok was unsuccessful. Her reign paved the way for Silla unification of Korea and other female rulers after her, including one directly after her. Lol. Bidam and his wishes were literally buried by history only to be resurrected in the form of whiny comments on Seondeok. History always wins out in the end. No greater irony than that an anti-female Kim Bushik ended up being one of the greatest exonerators of Seondeok's record ever. Though this has occurred for other female leaders in history too. :)
 
You ignored about her failure on warfare from start, and now you try to blame me?? This is not even the historical discussion. You are ignoring the Seonggol frame, which is most critical to understand the events during this period. (Queen Jindeok also was crowned bacause she was Seonggol) You are ignoring the Silla power around the region significantly steped back at her reign. You are ignoring the Korean historians who researched about her. Kim Busik is one of her critic but you cut all his assessment and cherrypicked the only good comment, because he is misogynist. Not only this old man, the modern Korean historians also criticize her for her incompetence on war and leadership. Nobody assess her as a scientific leader only because of Cheomseongdae regardless what you want.

I said, these all are the reason why you always met the haters. Because you ignored their all argument and considered them as just another misogynists. I'm not good at English indeed, and have difficulty in finding proper English documents to backup me, but I tried enough to say the historical knowledge what I learned. And now you insulted my nation without respect, I'll quit this horsehocky.
 
TheSpaceCowboy said:
Since the original post of “leaders you don’t want but do want” is a little too up to interpretation, the below list is merely non-ruling Leaders for Civ VII

Including generals, philosophers, theologians, writers, and even legendary figures

(and a few rulers who were better known for these things than actually ruling)

*I’ve omitted civs with associated leaders already revealed (except for ‘Merica!)
**I’ve omitted civs best led by a political leader
***I have tried to keep the original spirit of historical figures one wouldn’t immediately think of or which would surprise fans

America - William F. Buckley Jr.
Arabia - Aisha (with Lyanna Mormont energy)
Argentina - Eva Perón
Australia - Steve Irwin
Babylon - Daniel
Bohemia - Jan Hus
Denmark - Hrothgar
England - J.R.R. Tolkien
Finland - Elias Lönnrot
Germany - Martin Luther, Jacob Grimm
Greece - Socrates
Israel - Samson, Judas Maccabaeus
Italy - Dante Alighieri, Machiavelli
Mexico - Hernán Cortés, Santa Anna
Normandy - William Marshal
Norway - Leif Erikson
Persia - Esther, Avicenna
Powhatan - Pocahontas
Russia - Andrei Tarkovsky
Shoshone - Sacagawea
Spain - Cervantes, El Cid
Sweden - Ragnarr Loðbrók
Switzerland - Huldrych Zwingli
Wales - Madoc (perfect for Exploration Age)
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I got one of my picks today!!!

Hint: it’s not Martin Luther, and if he’s not being announced today of all days, he’s not in the base game at all (though his inclusion would have made it more of a *based* game 😉)
 
The_goggles_do_nothing said:
Heyreddin Barbarossa
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Just for his clothing, yes.
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