Leaders

[Txurce]

I quite like the new Darius, certainly much more than the older one.

The fun I got from Darius was trying to maximise Golden Ages - the entire game effectively became making my people as happy as possible, while going for any policy that would benefit Golden Ages, in order to get the upper hand in culture. The UU is especially cool in this regard, since using the Immortal against Barbs is more of a tool to get more Golden Ages than to have a promoted army.

Siam, in my eyes, has always been the strongest Civ - the one contender being vanilla Korea. He does have a tendency to runaway, and it's primarily due to the extra food he gets.

Siam will do better now because the extra gold funnels directly into his UA. From that pov, he just received a huge boost as an AI, and needs nerfing. However, Persia outperformed him in my game. I agree with albie that Persia is almost uniquely hands-on, in that you are constantly pulling its levers to reach and stay in a GA.

With regard to evaluating these civs, I wonder if Prince is the level on which to do it? In other words, should Siam be measured on Prince, or on a higher level where it's getting (warped by definition) bonuses? Also, is it running away with games (not my experience) or merely establishing itself as the most consistent AI? My sense is that it's the latter.

Edit: Also keep in mind that the human player wouldn't get the same advantages as the V132 AI. A nerf would make Siam less appealing to the human player (who should take priority).

 

[Seek]

I've never figured out a good way to improve Darius. I'll hold another leader poll in a month or so. If these changes haven't made him more popular, we might try replacing his trait with something totally different. Golden ages don't even have a direct benefit... they just let us do other things better. Maybe it'd be better to give Darius buffs to those other things directly...

Darius: +50% longer Golden Ages, Golden Ages give +10% , , , , and +1 for units. Too strong?

@Seek
I'd be okay with reducing Siam from 40% bonuses to... 25%?

That sounds perfect!

 

[bwoww78]

Darius: +50% longer Golden Ages, Golden Ages give +10% and units receive +1. Too strong?



That sounds perfect!

i agree on both points.

fwiw, consider how much the player has to manipulate the timing of GAs, those bonuses make it worth your while. you are all much better at doing the per turn math to determine the scaling of %-bonuses, so considering how the AI likely doesn't realize the same extent of benefits with Darius (and too much of the benefits with Siam), I think both are good changes.

 

[albie_123]

Darius: +50% longer Golden Ages, Golden Ages give +10% , , , , and +1 for units. Too strong?

Personally, I'd get rid of the 50% longer Golden Ages, but the idea itself sounds really fun. Maybe, though, the 10% should be gotten rid of, and the +1 gold on tiles kept?

 

[pthmix]

@pthmix
Napoleon doesn't have a trait after Steam Power, so a trait going obsolete has precedent.

...

No trait after Writing (usually the second tech I research as Babylon) and no trait after Steam Power is a difference. Napoleon's trait is active for a very long time and he gets a very strong benefit from it. But if you want to keep Babylon this way, I'm fine with that.

 

[Txurce]

The v133.4 nerf to Korea's Jade Hall looks like a good one. I'm playing with them on King v132, and they got off to a flying start. (More on Korea later.)

 

[Thalassicus]

Yeah, I tried Korea too, and it felt too easy. The new trait is very powerful!

 

[Zeppelin4]

I have to say you made Korea fun thanks. Now if you could make Moai useful I would play Polynesia. I really like the embark they start with and hate the Moai to the point I don't play them.

 

[mitsho]

I disagree making Darius a jack-of-all with small bonus to every yield. That's not making him more enticing. My problem is that the +50% is more targeted at Tall Civs, since culture victories are for tall civs and percentages help a lot more if you already have a steady base culture. But the movement bonus and especially the satrap court is more effective with wide empires.

So I would shift the bonus to a straight up direct + X and + Y in addition to the + 1 (it's fun!) with the idea of making Darius play wide and building satrap court while the Golden Ages come in thanks to satrap courts (this effect is untouched by unhappiness) and help out in building up the conquered land more easily. The science and/or culture also lets you neglect science/culture buildings in favour of military or expansion strategies.

With a tall empire, the small amounts of and won't help you out much and you run out of satrap courts to build...

Additionaly, might I ask what you plan to do with naval units when God and Kings run around. Assuming (!!) that the naval combat really has been improved, will you add back in the Naval units like the turtle ship or Englans Ship-of-the-Line? There might be room for a modmod adding one Unique to each civ to get them back to Vanilla (see title of the mod), for example the Danes are still missing their Norwegian Ski Infantry

 

[Thalassicus]

I agree with mitsho - adding a lot of bonuses here and there probably won't help. I search for traits that are simple but dramatic like +1 on Korea's farms, or Arabia's +5% per luxury.

When they say "improved" they're talking about the melee ships. I discussed my plans for that here: Navies.

 

[albie_123]

Is it possible to make a trait for Dairus where every successive Golden Age gives more of a yield?

For example, first GA gives 45 , second GA gives 45 + X , third GA gives 45 + 2X , etc.

(Not sure about the 45, just had to use a placeholder number to illustrate what I meant )

This would:

• Encourage seeking Golden Ages, which in my experience is a very fun way to play.
• Keep Darius's GA flavour, which is present in both his UU and UB.
• Not favour tall / wide, since Darius can go either way.
• Keep the trait relevant later on in the game, as the value of decreases.
• Not be a particularly complex or convoluted trait and so would be be fun and easy to understand.

 

[ipsen]

think elizabeths ua should be changed to either increased strength percentage or range point on ships or back to increased movement on water. the added promotions on naval ships are of next to no use at all on longer game lengths. 20 turns of attacking or say 5-7 barbarians killed by any other civ produces the same result. only really matters if the english are fighting off invasion from the sea and need to get good ships out fast, which doesnt really fit with the english flavour.

the previous ua wasnt really as much a buff for english ships as it was a buff for english land unit moving along the coast or to invade across ocean. the biggest use i could see was in attacking coastal cities. english ships could move in and bring down the defences with a couple of land units waiting outside the range of the city or its defensive forces. however i see the logic of seperating harald from elizabeth, though early on with light ship promotions as they are 2 promotions translates to added movement and sight for ships anyway.

the english flavour was listed as early artillery an increased range to ships would make sense in this allowing even triremes to harass an enemy coastal cities all be it at only 1 or 2 points of damage a turn. whereas increased strengh like a permanent morale bonus like effect across all ships would play towards the idea of elizabeth focusing more on capital ships and smashing enemy naval forces.

 

[Thalassicus]

It's not practical to balance the game for all combinations of speed, size, and map scripts.

I recommend playing VEM on a standard size, normal speed, Continents-Plus map. Continents Plus comes with the Explorer’s Map Pack and is by far the best map to play Civ 5 on. I recommend dropping down a difficulty from what you’re used to on vanilla.

The settings below are also tested with VEM. Games with different settings might not be as balanced:

• Continents or Pangaea (and their “Plus” versions)
• Small or Standard maps on Normal speed.
• Large maps on Epic speed.
• Default advanced game options.

increased strength percentage or range point on ships

with light ship promotions as they are 2 promotions translates to added movement and sight for ships anyway

Strength or range would only help combat. An experience bonus helps both combat and exploration, as you pointed out.

 

[timbuktu]

Shouldn't Montezuma's trait be strengthened due to the lastest change in the cost of policy?
Killing a knight unit for 35 culture meanwhile my 4 native cities generate about 300 culture per turn, so it may be pointless in going war.

 

[black213]

Shouldn't Montezuma's trait be strengthened due to the lastest change in the cost of policy?
Killing a knight unit for 35 culture meanwhile my 4 native cities generate about 300 culture per turn, so it may be pointless in going war.

The trait really shines at the early game, and is just a slight bonus in the later game. That's just how it works.

 

[Thalassicus]

I increased Monty's bonus 300% when policy costs went up 200%.