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Learning Specialist Economy

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by eXeel, Sep 2, 2008.

  1. macedon

    macedon Chieftain

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    First of all Peter is philo so you have to build that wonders which are best for him:
    pyramids and the great library.For first you have stone for second you have a great engineer . And dont forgot about oracle who give you col because again peter is philo. I don't coment about expansiv very weak .If you check my game i finished Mids before oracle and oracle in other city to have a engineer guaranted. And btw second city always has to be a strong city not like your second.In That city you are producing workers setllers.
    Sorry about my english
    regards,
    Macedon
     
  2. DarkFyre99

    DarkFyre99 Prince

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    I'm still not seeing either 30 or 27 food from five tiles, especially with an iron mine:

    3 floodplain farms: 12 food
    wheat: 5 food
    plains iron: 1 food
    city center: 2 food

    that's a total of 20 food pre-biology, ten of which is feeding the citizens working that tile, so you can at most have five specialists, or five citizens working zero-food tiles (such as plains workshops or plains mines)
     
  3. blitzkrieg1980

    blitzkrieg1980 Octobrist

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    I wrote pre-biology, but my #s were for post-biology and my math was a little wrong.

    Reworked #s:

    3 floodplains = 3x5
    1 wheat = 1x5 (not on a river)
    2 grassland farm = 2 x 4
    city center = 1 x 2 = 2
    Total = 30

    6 tiles working for 30 food / 15 population
    Gives you either 9 specialists/no growth (maxed health/happiness) or 8 specialists with growth.

    Once state property comes into play, this city oscillates between production and a specialist city since it has 8 (i think) plains only tiles. Put down 8 workshops there. 2 Grassland hills get 2 mines with railroad. 3 plains hills get 3 mines with railroad. The plains tile with iron mined and railroaded.
    8 x 5 = 40 + (2 * 4) + (3 * 5) + (1 * 5) = 40 + 8 + 15 + 5 = 68 base production.

    30 food from the 6 tiles mentioned before gives 30 food + 8 food from the State Property workshops + 2 food from grassland hills + 1 food from iron mine on plains = 41 food. This supports the 20 tiles. Unfortunately, once the city is maxed at 20 population, you can only pull the citizens from the plains hills to be specialists so only 3.
     
  4. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    On the Russian map I secured 4 cities by about 1600bc. I lost a few turns here and there. I did run out of forest around Moscow too quickly. Yes 2000bc was an approx target. Maybe 1800bc more realistic. You do need lots of forest for this to work. Sometimes I try to steal a worker from the Ai early on. This allows me to build a warrior and let city grow to size 2. Does help starting with a warrior for this. Skipping the 4th worker would have speeded up my 4th city.

    Still the point is to demonstrate how fast you could have 4 cities. By 1600bc i had 3 axemen built, 4 workers, 4 cities and a warrior. (Copper slowed down my defence building). On Beyond the Sword leaders Like JoaII can expand rapidly with Imperialist trait and a settler straight off.

    Your screenshot for your second city settler on Russian map seemed optimal for a pure chopping approach. The time you built your second settler on the Russian map was 400+ years ahead of your other game. Thats 20 turns more for the second city to build a worker or warrior or something else.

    There are those that will say let your capital grow to happiness cap of size 3-4 and develop resources in your capitals BFC. If I had 2-3 resources i could work this may add value. The idea being your capital can churn worker settlers in much less time. 30 turns vs 8-9 turns.

    Remember that barb warriors dont arrive before around 2200bc. Animals will never enter your cultural borders. A scout/ warrior on a hill will knock these out unless you have a bear nearby. On higher levels such as Emperor or above barbs are a bigger threat and people go for more archers and defenders early on for defence and to fog bust.

    It is wise to use your scout/ warriors to fogbust. Barbs will only appear in the fogged/ black areas of the map. The danger of that Russian map was all your borders are surrounded by fog. Starting by the coast secures your rear defences.
     
  5. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    2. Early on my objectives are normally to hook up key resources like copper, stone, gold and food resources to help worker settler production.. If i dont have copper or horses nearby i may go for archers. Warriors are good till axemen arrive. I will often use my warriors to fog bust outside cultural borders. You do want something to stop barb axemen which arrive around 1000bc.

    3. You had 8 workers and 4 cities in first game. To redress this balance you needed 2 or so more cities to spread the workers across. You dont want any idle workers but you dont want resource unworked and cities not connected by road. With the chopping approach i need the workers early on. The main issue i had was you were building a 9th worker and not a settler. 8 workers is fine even with the jungle. I normally find I have 5-6 workers to 4 cities early on. As i expand to 8 or so cities i build workers as i need them.

    4. yeah you cant chop forest if you have none.

    5. Again this depends on your strategy. Specialist economies need lots of food. The chopping strategy is one of many at the start.

    6. On the Russian game I seemed to be pumping out axemen. if you have a size 4-5 capital with 1-2 food resources many higher level players use that to pump out worker settlers instead of the chopping route. With the copper near Moscow the capital could make a good prodcution city. If you find a food rich city theres no reason why you cant whip a library and add two scientists to your 2nd/3rd city. Even without representation this still leads to an early great scientist that can bulb a useful technology such as philosophy once you have the required techs.

    Its meant to be a fun game. I would suggest reading the walk through games on forums and finding an efficient start that suits you. Its not just about expanding fast you do need to tech fast too. if this is your first game you want to be starting on the lower levels to learn the basics. I started on Noble and quickly moved up to monarch.
     
  6. eXeel

    eXeel Chieftain

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    Alright :) I'll keep checking back here for any input that might arrive. I think I'll go into training and get more practical experience, maybe read a few more guides. And then when I have enough new material to come back with and ask questions too, I hope you all are up for enligthening me a little more!

    I've already progressed a lot, since I was at 3-4 cities at 0 AD before (I was told to watch out for my economy and focus on few, large cities instead, when I went to Noble a year ago). Now I can get 2 up at 2770 or maybe even a little earlier.
    I can also get wonders, not fall behind in techs, learned to use whipping and tasted a little of specialization.
    And I am finally not behind in Civ points, even in Monarchy!

    So I've gotten what I came for. I'm sure there is still more to come for, but I'll try to play a longer Monarch game and then when ready, I'll either step it up another notch in difficulty, or come back for tips to help me ready myself for the harder difficulty (if I struggle with Monarchy).

    :)
     
  7. Gumbolt

    Gumbolt Phoenix Rising

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    I think you will get there. When i first played i built about 5-6 cities and sat there till late game. I wondered why I was falling behind so much on noble and Prince. I slowly grasped GP farms and their value and had a number of cultural wins. By this time I was reading the forum quite a lot.

    i then started to axe rush on monarchy using Japanesse. I suddenly found myself with 6-7 cities and an Ai capital early on. I went through a phase of axe rushing. It was then I played the Romans. It was a joke. Those prets can almost walk on water. They trampled the rest to nasty death. At this stage I was playing continents with 7 civs. it was my earliest domination win. I reached a point where i controlled my island and i was waiting to meet the Ai. I did the same for the Russians on a land based map. I was literally just building military units 100%. I loved the cossacks when they arrived.

    I slowly grasped how to build Galleons and sail the seven seas and conquer abroad. I started to get domination wins on monarch quite often.

    I now play huge maps with 11 AIs. This is a bigger challenge. I am now using GLH, mids and specialists more. Its a gradual learning curve.

    I think for me I grasp one thing at a time then move on to try new things. As long as that involves civ 4 :lol:
     
  8. eXeel

    eXeel Chieftain

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    Hehe :) Nice to hear your background... It's amazing how much strategy and depth there is in Civilization. And even in singleplayer, with the AI! Mostly you hear strategy games might have value for a longer time than normal games, but then that is solely based on its multiplayer capabilities...

    I love Civ.
     
  9. supergiu

    supergiu Chieftain

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    fuddah...can you please explain me why you refer to 17 tiles? A BFC is built of 20
    Your reasoning is not that clear to me, but I feel like that when I'll get it I'll know something more...
     
  10. TheDS

    TheDS Regular Riot

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    Hello? Did you not read the same post where he claims that Citizens used as Specialists create unhealth and unhappiness, but those who work Cottages do not? I even quoted it for you.

    First, let me be clear about my own preferences. I find Cottages to be a waste of time and effort in the early game, except as fillers when you've got idle time and idle space.

    I am instead propounding what's loosely known as a Food Economy. The point of it is to grow your cities rapidly, then whip them to get things built in half the time. By doing this, it is possible to build things with Food AND Hammers, and use them both at the same time.

    However, whipping causes unhappiness, and you must arrest your growth to keep from exceeding your happiness cap. While waiting for the unhappiness to go away, your choices of action include- building Workers/Settlers, assigning farmers to mines, and yes, even clicking on the HALT GROWTH button when you have too much food coming in. You'll have to micromanage that button, because the whipping unhappiness disappears little by little (10 turns after the whipping, IIRC) and as one goes away, it's possible to allow growth again, and then you have to stop it again when you've reached the new cap.

    If you assign people to working Cottages, you can't whip because not only does your population grow slowly, but all those people are needed to keep doing what they're doing. Additionally, you're not working Hammers, so you're not building anything, and you're not working Food, so you don't get a boost to Settler/Worker production.

    Once you've got some cities and you're over the initial rush to get stuff built, it's okay to tear up Farms and plant Cottages, and you'll even have the population in place to work them. I rarely do it myself, because I prefer to leverage extra Food into Specialists or Hammers, which can be used to get Markets and Libraries and stuff built, so you don't need so many Cottages. I tech well enough, but by Rifling, I am outproducing everyone put together in every area. (England is a perfect fit for me.)

    Harvest the bounties of the water. Plain water tiles tend to be useless, HOWEVER, you don't have to build anything on them and they're worth 2 Commerce, and with a Lighthouse, they're food-neutral, just like Cottages. Throw in Financial or Colossus and they're even better!

    But really, what I'm talking about are the resources. If you can get 1 or 2 of those, a city will grow fast, supporting Mines or Cottages or Specialists. Fish itself is worth 6 Food with a Lighthouse - that's 2 Specialists or 2-4 Mines!

    I believe the quote in question was intentionally misrepresented, so that my preference for Food and Hammers could be taken WAY out of context and mocked. I pity the fool, as you saw. (Now where's the smiley with a Mohawk and three tons of gold chains?)

    As Russia doesn't really beg for a total Water Economy, I would build roads. Rome (the real Rome) conquered the world because they could get their troops where they were needed quickly. Without roads, you need 2-3 defenders per border city, plus a larger and more thorough fog-busting force, and then you'll need an army for each section of the frontier. MUCH cheaper to just connect every city with roads and have 1-2 reactionary forces in total (3-6 units each), 1 defender per city (unless expecting trouble from somewhere), then divert the saved Hammers into useful buildings or Settlers.

    This approach does carry some risk, of course, but if you spend the first half of your game building just units, you'll kill yourself, and the best you can hope for is to sweep across the land, pillaging and razing before anyone can stop you, while trying desperately to get a real economy into place.

    A little about me (if you care):
    I am a builder. I like to have everything everywhere. In other games, I'm a min-maxer, so I can specialize decently, I just can't resist building things. My two favorite buildings are Forge and Factory, and 3GD is my favorite Wonder. I've not yet played as Roosevelt, because I haven't gotten around to him yet, but I'm sure I'll like him.

    I tend to be a creature of habit, but I try to do something different in each game. My first games were all about having the best troops, so I liked Agg, Pro, and Cha a lot. Then I got into whipping after learning the value of it. I figured out how to get a Settler out the door before 1000BC. I learned how to draft. I am trying to figure out how to cottage excessively without tanking, but I can't figure it out. I just can't comprehend early cottages. At the core of it all, though, has always been my desire to maximize production, and I have fights with the auto-citizen thing, because it usually wants to grow the population instead, but it HAS taught me that rapid population growth is the key to everything else.

    My most recent games, I've been trying to get into early rushing, and I'm using the whip and the draft less. I also try to stay away from Fin and Phi because I feel they make it too easy on me; I don't want the crutch, I want to run. I've never played a game at less than Noble, and only recently decided to start moving up the diffs. I played part of Snaaty's Deity game and at the time he stopped in 1070AD with a Rifle invasion of his neighbors, I JUST got Astronomy and with it, tech parity, but my military isn't strong enough, and I know the tech situation is going to deteriorate soon, but I had to detour to feed an urge to find out what a Warrior rush was like, so I should be getting back to that game any day now.
     
  11. eXeel

    eXeel Chieftain

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    Thank you for that little info :) And for the straightening up of the confussion.

    I'm in trouble already (after deciding to go play a series of games, with what I've learned here). I have problems picking the right order for my cities. And it is slowing my down a lot!

    The maps I get through the randomization isn't always perfect. At least I feel that way, maybe I just cannot take advantage of it.
    I've read about what ratio of the different towns I need, but it somehow f*cks up for me before I get that far (on some maps).

    My first town is always need quite a bit of food, often due to flood plains. So I think either GP farm or Science Specialist city. Due to all the food.
    But there are normally also hills nearby, should I instead just make it a production factory after the first 2 workers and 1 settler?

    And what about my next? If my first is GP (and is that stupid, when it is my capital?), should the next be production? I will need military before my 3rd or at least when I get my 3rd, or barbarians kill me.
    What if my first is production, what should my second me? And the third?
    Or should I solely judge from what ressources and tiles I have close to me?

    It is HARD! :(
    I could easily load a game I know has good positions, like the one I started out with. But I don't want to do this the easy way, I want to learn to play on other maps too.

    The first years, from 4000 BC to 500 BC are the hardest. Trying to get as many settlers and enough workers out the door, while still having a military to defend vs archers / axemen and still keeping the science up. Ouch!
     
  12. blitzkrieg1980

    blitzkrieg1980 Octobrist

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    I don't usually worry about tech much more than keeping with my workers actions/getting swordsmen/moving towards my research style (SE or CE) and supplementing them for the first 3000 years or so. I concentrate on REX and defense. If REX requires military, then I clearly go for those techs first. As long as your not being blown away in the beginning by the AI I wouldn't worry about tech beyond what you specifically need especially when setting up SE.

    Once you get some decent cities (I'd say 5 by ADs) and are working them well, you can start really saturating your concentration on techs/economy/gold. My reasoning is that 5 cities allows 1 to be production powerhouse for churning out units, 1 to be a science powerhouse/GS Farm, 1 to be a gold powerhouse, and 2 to combo science/gold/production. Here's where your SE can take off and you can tell your GPP city to churn out a settler every few dozen turns to make sure you get enough land.
     
  13. eXeel

    eXeel Chieftain

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    Ah, 5 by the ADs I can get. That is not a problem, thought I was meant to have 8 by then!

    Swordsmen? I suppose that is because you want to go offensive? Axemen is better for defense and non-city combat, aren't they?

    What is REX? I play Vanilla, is it a BtS wonder or short for something?

    What is CE? I don't know about that. When is that preferred to SE?
     
  14. Charonicus

    Charonicus Warlord

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    Gotta love the amount of jargon that comes with civ huh. I'm still learning all those TLAs (Three Letter Acronyms).

    REX is Rapid EXpansion. It's exactly what it sounds like. Watch your replays after a game and look at when the AI founds cities. You wanna be doing that. Grab land or the AI will steal it off you leaving you penned in.

    Axemen are good offensive units, having access to city raider promotions. I prefer them to swordsmen. They make good defenders too but so do archers with their innate city defence bonuses and promotions.

    CE is cottage economy, where you get your income from having lots and lots of cottages maturing rather than runnig specialists. Founding a religion and using a Great Prophet to build your religion's shrine also brings in some cash. Didn't found a religion? Go conquer someone that did. :p

    War is ultimately unavoidable. If you have nothing to build, build troops. Get them levelled by fighting off the barbs. Watch your neighbours' cities and if they are poorly defended, build a nice big stack and go take it.
     
  15. TheDS

    TheDS Regular Riot

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    If I gave you the impression you needed a ton of cities quickly, I'm sorry. One must keep in mind there are different game speeds and map sizes, and these affect how many cities should be built in your initial landgrab. The indicator I use is the gold slider; if it gets higher than about 50%, then I know I should slow down. This isn't a hard and fast rule, and if you're not obsessed with teching, it can go a lot higher in total safety, as long as you have a purpose for it, and it doesn't last too long.

    My tendency for my capital is to make it as big and productive as possible. It's got that 1 free happy face from the Palace. Later on, when you get Bureaucracy, you want either a lot of Hammers or a lot of Commerce (or a lot of both if you can swing it) to maximize the bonus - assuming you want to go Bur, which I almost always do.

    I also have a tendency to avoid Specialists in the early game, just like I also avoid Cottages. If it isn't growing my city or getting something built faster so I can start collecting on compound interest, I avoid it. Obviously, this isn't always the best policy, and I've been trying to get myself to pop an early GP, but typically I have Wonders that take care of that. What better thing to use a massive production center than to build expensive stuff? :D
     
  16. Gliese 581

    Gliese 581 Your average civ junkie

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    A couple of points:

    Even though I often don't go for cottage spam early in games, cottages can be worked instead of food resources when growing back to happy cap from a whip, especially in the capital if you plan to use bureacracy there later.

    About fishing: Yes, mainly to hook up sea resources but keep in mind that it leads to sailing which lets you use rivers and coast outside your cultural borders as roads, within your cultural borders you get that automatically. But if you want to hook up a strategic resource and it's far away from your capital you might want to get sailing instead of relying on a long road which might take a long time to construct and needs to be protected from barbarians.

    *EDIT* One should also mention that sailing usually enable trading with Ais much earlier than roadbuilding which grants you double the commerce from trades compared to internal revenues or even more if the AI is on another landmass.

    About first expansion: I recommend you make getting a strategic resource your first priority. There's nothing wrong with getting archery and use that for a little while but even if that will protect from most barbarians you need to make sure that you can build a proper army to defend/attack other civs.
    Second priority is early happiness resources, especially those with a high commerce yield such as gold, gems and silver. Ivory is of course both a happiness resource and later a very potent strategic resource so it is highly desireable to ensure access to quickly.
     
  17. Kesshi

    Kesshi Emperor

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    Sorry I'm late everybody. But I just HAVE to chime in here.

    Now it's been a while since I've really played Civ (probably a few months) but I still understand a lot of concepts.

    Btw, I just started playing again. Lost my first game on Monarch (well, I didn't lose, but I wasn't going to win how I wanted to. Blarg.)

    DaveMcW,

    It is a common misconception that specialist cities need to be big. This is very much NOT the case with an SE. If I had a bunch of Flood Plains, I'd farm them and then whip the heck out of that city. After all, food = hammers, and Flood Plains = food! Once the city's happiness max stopped at city size 4, I'd work just enough food to sustain the city (usually 2 tiles) and assign 2 Scientist Specialists.

    Each Scientist produces 6 beakers. That's 6x2, +25% from the Library, or 15 beakers from one small city that's in recovery mode. This doesn't factor in commerce from tiles (flood plains means riverside tiles) and commerce from trade routes (2 with Currency and 4 with Currency and Coastal if you have The Great Lighthouse.) Early on is the best time to have Open Boarders with every civilization you have a trade route with. Each Trade Route should be netting you 2 commerce for every one of your cities. Even at 50% gold 50% science, working 2 riverside tiles, and only two 2 commerce trade routes that's (1+1+2+2) * 50% = 3 more science, * +25% Library, or 3.75 + your other 15 beakers. 18.75 beakers from one size 4 city is very nice early on.

    Also, keeping your cities small is very optimal early on. During the early game not many civilizations will have many resources. The computer is always far too eager to trade for a resource it doesn't have. This is why I trade away as many resources as possible. Even if I only have one of them. Because, hey, what does a size 4 city need with 12 healthiness?

    2gpt here, 3gpt there, it all adds up.

    *Note* these are early game stratigies. While they can be used later, they work best early on.


    Gumbolt is right here.

    One of the strengths of a Specialist Economy is how easily you can manage horozontal growth. IE you want more cities. MORE MORE MOAR. My best game has put me at literally dozens of cities by that time, however more realisticly you should have 8 to 10, preferibly 12 cities by 100 ad. My target is a dozen cities by 0ad with both Currency and Theology researched. However if I'm only a few cities lower than that, I'm okay. If I'm only at 4 cities, I'm doing something wrong.

    Gumbolt is wrong here. :(

    For a Specialist Economy, you want to be running Representation. Representation helps with the early happiness issue. I will admit that HR helps with the happiness more than Rep, but you shouldn't be running Rep only for the happiness. You want Rep for the +3 beaker per specialist bonus. The extra happiness is just a bonus.

    Tibur753,

    No no no no no! This is a Specialist Economy.

    A settled Great Person ALSO yields the bonus +beakers. A Great Engineer I will usually settle in either my Military city for maximum return on the hammers, or in my dedicated Science city.

    Wait, did he just say to settle a Great Engineer in a Science City?

    Yes, yes I did. The 3+3 beakers may not seem like a lot, but you will eventually have a Library for +25%, a University +25%, an Observatory, +25%, an Academy +50%, and Oxford University +100%. That's +25+25+25+50+100, or +225%. Those 6 beakers turn into 19.5 beakers.

    Laboratories come too late for me to factor in, and Academies eventually become obsolete, so I don't factor those in either.

    Not only that, typically you'll want your Science City to be very very populated for running mass specialists, so you'll favor farms over workshops and watrewheels, and windmills over mines. This means you typically have very little production in a city that needs a lot of buildings. The extra Great Engineer hammers will always come in very handy.

    The math on settleing your Great Engineer in your military city, the one that built the Heroic Epic, goes like this: +100% for military production, and +25% for a Forge. This makes for +125% from every hammer you put in. Those 3 hammers turn into 6.75 hammers.

    eXeel,

    Have you tried the Trade Route Economy and the Religious Economy? Both of these easily mesh with early Specialist and early Cottage Economies. Though the Religious Economy favors the Specialist Economy, and the TRE meshes better with the Cottage Economy, in my opinion.

    The way I play a SE is to expand until I'm running around 20% science 80% gold. Then it's into recovery mode. Now the joy of having a Specialist Economy is that even at 0% science and 100% gold you should be producing a signifignant amount of Science. I've had games where I could drop the commerce slider down to 0% science and still out-tech everybody else.

    A Specialist Economy will start off strong. Because your specialists don't grow like in a Cottage Economy, they need to be better than Cottages. Because of this you should bound ahead of everybody in the early game. Though do realize that a Cottage Economy will catch up and eventually overpass your Specialist Economy in commerce and production per square mile. By then you should be very much ahead of your competition in so many ways. In brief: a SE starts strong make use of your strength to make a very quick jump into the lead.
     
  18. NoDot

    NoDot Warlord

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    Further proof that the term "Economy" only classifies the source of :science:, not the source of :gold:.
     
  19. blitzkrieg1980

    blitzkrieg1980 Octobrist

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    ^^^ True dat ;).
     
  20. eXeel

    eXeel Chieftain

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    Wouw, good to see the tips still coming :) I started a new game, as I wrote.
    I picked Pangea, as I want to play with all civilizations, and not just half on my continent and the rest doing I-don't-know on the other contingent.
    Still Monarchy difficulty and still me trying to do a specialist economy. Epic is the speed and I'm playing as the English.

    The game
    I wanted to share the savegames with you. There is the initial save, the current save and some in between. The #1 War means that was when the strongest civilization declared war with me.
    I managed to survive it, actually razed one and stole two of his cities before accepting his begging for a peace treaty. He was at aroudn 1700 and me 1200 civ points, so I decided to play a few of the smaller civilizations out against him.
    It was a medium long war, the 4th placed Japanese actually voluntarily declared war with him in the middle of it, and I was please with that, hehe. I wanted to keep the war going long enough for me to ruin some cities of his, and to tear him down to at least my level of Civ points. And it worked out perfectly.

    Beginning
    In the beginning, I actually didn't use Slavery for whipping. I just wanted to focus on the other things, is whipping always a must?
    What I did was expand as much as I could, use my workers right, played my military as minimalistic as possible until I had War Elephants and had to make myself capable of not being an easy target for a war declaration.

    During the war, I had almost all cities pumping out military, due to me not having much at the start of the war, and that he was larger than me in every aspect. So it was all or nothing.

    Now
    I'm rebuilding my infrastructure and I think I did okay with my specialised economy. What I, again, haven't done well enough, is to get a dedicated GP farm. I THOUGHT my capital was the GP farm, but I must admit I somehow made a lot of cottages there. Hm, it was partly due to not having Civil Service. But still, I could have done better.
    Do you suggest me pillaging the towns around capital and making food, to get a few more specialised scientists? Or is it dumb when they are now towns and I am this late into the game?

    I need to be even more focused on that stupid GP farm, I have a hard time making it just that! :)

    I am please with my production, it could be a lot worse. I have many production/commerce hybrids. Is that okay? This give me both science and hammers, I just couldn't find a good spot for a 100% commerce farm. But some of the comes pretty close.
    What do you say?
     

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