Legacy paths and victory rework - expectations

I think if legacy paths are staying in the general way they currently exist, the sweet spot for me are ones that basically trick new players into playing well by giving them an extrinsic incentive to do what experienced players do intrinsically, and, by the same token, therefore don't require experienced players to go out their way to hit those bonuses.

What I mean by that is that completion of a given legacy path should not only come as a natural result of playing well for that particular type of game, but that doing so should set you up for future ages (beyond just giving you the legacy points). I think the best example of this in the game currently is the exploration science path. For a science game where you're ultimately really looking to max out your science and production, identifying and utilising high-adjacency tiles is a solid gameplan regardless. Five 40-yield tiles means you've made good use of your tiles, grown your cities, progressed through the science tree to get specialist limit increases, and all of those things contribute a lot to your empire's general strength going forward, either into a science win or to be adapted for something else. For an experienced player, they're probably doing that anyway, and therefore don't feel too railroaded into going out their way to get the legacy points. For a new player, meanwhile, the legacy points have the effect of jangling the keys in front of them to give them a more immediate, "gamier" reward to work towards, while at the same time guiding them towards taking action that will strengthen their empire in the longer run. It strikes a really nice balance between making the game more approachable for new players while remaining inobtrusive for those who know what they're doing. (I think antiquity culture and economic paths are pretty solid at this too; exploration economic isn't terrible either, at least in the sense of pushing you to expand effectively. And kind of just discount military from this whole discussion since it's kind of its own thing).

Contrast that with codices or relics, where it's just this weird arbitrary points system that only really serves to try and move you through the tree in question (though relics don't even do that very much). Yes, getting lots of codices requires a high science yield, but at that point why not just tie the legacy points to science per turn thresholds? There's nothing about codices that gives you more general strength going forwards (the "general strength" vs. "specific yield strength" distinction is a little arbitrary but I think it's important to the paths not feeling railroady. If I, as an experienced player, can just focus on developing my empire well and naturally hit legacy milestones for whatever I'm succeeding in, that feels much more fluid than "You hit 300 culture per turn! Here is culture legacy milestone number 2!", even if 300 culture per turn can ultimately translate into all kinds of other, more generalised strength).

Basically, if we're having this system of ticking off boxes each age, the best implementation I can see is one that serves as a helpful guide for new players to improve, but that experienced players can largely forget about and just naturally complete as they play.

To be clear, I absolutely would like legacy paths to be as open as possible and have more ways to complete each one; these are just my rough thoughts on the good and bad of how they're currently implemented.
I disagree with the general idea that the legacy paths should be “what you just naturally achieve”
I think they should involve something you naturally do…but extend it beyond what is normally ideal.

Basically a good player ignoring the legacy paths and just making a strong empire should get level one or maybe two in most paths, but getting level 3 requires focus/overextending.

Some of the paths can be improved by making the legacy token a bit more desirable…what if Slotted Great Works gave 1 influence? reason to get codexes right there

Some of the paths can be improved by improving the underlying mechanic. Collecting and slotting Relics would be more interesting if Religion was more interesting.
 
Codices aren't terrible, science has always been the most "just get a lot of the yield" path with its victory projects, and in antiquity your empire isn't really developed enough to do much else with science anyway.

I think the problem is just that getting the codices feels arbitrary, like they have no purpose other than acting as checks you have enough science to get through the tree. If you ignore legacy points, there is literally zero reason to ever research Mathematics II.
I used to think that. I actually go for it semi-frequently, now, irrespective of legacy paths. It's +2 science, available without spending production or population - and early antiquity is an era where +2 science still matters.
 
I used to think that. I actually go for it semi-frequently, now, irrespective of legacy paths. It's +2 science, available without spending production or population - and early antiquity is an era where +2 science still matters.
I find that with the scaling costs and add to era score, unless if my science is actually off the charts, I can't really chain future tech much. Maybe I complete one, and then in the 10 turn countdown I can squeeze in another. But more often than not, I end up with a point where I just don't have time to finish future tech again, and that's more often than not the time to circle back for the codexes. Then you just get down to whether it's better to research Mathematics II once, or pick up 2 of the earlier ones.
I disagree with the general idea that the legacy paths should be “what you just naturally achieve”
I think they should involve something you naturally do…but extend it beyond what is normally ideal.

Basically a good player ignoring the legacy paths and just making a strong empire should get level one or maybe two in most paths, but getting level 3 requires focus/overextending.

Some of the paths can be improved by making the legacy token a bit more desirable…what if Slotted Great Works gave 1 influence? reason to get codexes right there

Some of the paths can be improved by improving the underlying mechanic. Collecting and slotting Relics would be more interesting if Religion was more interesting.

I think the point is that legacy paths should push you down a path you might otherwise be going towards. In some sense, the religious path makes some sense, because you get value from spreading your religion (in my last game, I took the yields from wonders, and I think I was pulling in like 80 science, culture, and gold from that at the end of the era). But it fails because it's too easy to get through, and it only rewards converting it at some point. Once you've converted a settlement, you don't get anything else towards the path for converting it again. Plus, you don't have to keep on the culture tree to get more. Maybe it would be better if the pavilion was unlocked in the culture tree near the end, and it had a couple relic slots. At least there it's a little bit of a passive "well you gotta push your culture out to get enough slots to display".
 
I disagree with the general idea that the legacy paths should be “what you just naturally achieve”
I think they should involve something you naturally do…but extend it beyond what is normally ideal.

Basically a good player ignoring the legacy paths and just making a strong empire should get level one or maybe two in most paths, but getting level 3 requires focus/overextending.

Some of the paths can be improved by making the legacy token a bit more desirable…what if Slotted Great Works gave 1 influence? reason to get codexes right there

Some of the paths can be improved by improving the underlying mechanic. Collecting and slotting Relics would be more interesting if Religion was more interesting.
That's fair. I maybe worded it poorly. I was meaning less so what you're just doing naturally regardless, and more what you're doing naturally in a game where you're focusing on that goal. So in a game where you know you want to go for culture in the end, you're focusing on getting culture online (in theory anyway; for the sake of the example assume the later-age culture paths require culture lol), and as such you're going through the tree fast enough to bag wonders (which you're as well building).

I think needing to overextend a bit for the last point fits pretty well with that idea; essentially they should feel natural and part of regular gameplay (as opposed to force and arbitrary wheel-spinning until you get to the victory age), but still require commitment.
 
I used to think that. I actually go for it semi-frequently, now, irrespective of legacy paths. It's +2 science, available without spending production or population - and early antiquity is an era where +2 science still matters.
Yeah, they're solid early-age. I like picking up Writing II ASAP for a big science boon. It's just late in the age it becomes a case of like, there's no reason to be doing it other than meta-progression. Which isn't inherently a massive issue - personally I don't mind my game feeling game-y - but I think having the paths slot in as naturally as possible will help the ages feel smooth for people and it's nice having a sense of big-picture growth as I work on my in-age tasks. Like, setting up this high-adjacency tile helps me get the science legacy path now, but it'll still be good for lots of science and production to help me win faster in the next age. Same thing for placing wonders.

Something I've thought about in the past is that if we get a fourth age and the final culture win returns to the tourism idea we've had in 5 and 6, having great works stick around in some capacity could really play into this. Less so with codices, but if your relics and artifacts were all available in the fourth age to be displayed in some new building(s) for tourism, it'd retroactively make gathering them in their respective ages a lot more meaningful. And then if wonders give tourism too, you immediately have all three prior culture paths building into the endgame.

(This would not magically fix culture and the exploration and modern paths would still need some work to feel more interesting; really I just think it'd be fun to have things come back into play like that)
 
Yeah, they're solid early-age. I like picking up Writing II ASAP for a big science boon. It's just late in the age it becomes a case of like, there's no reason to be doing it other than meta-progression. Which isn't inherently a massive issue - personally I don't mind my game feeling game-y - but I think having the paths slot in as naturally as possible will help the ages feel smooth for people and it's nice having a sense of big-picture growth as I work on my in-age tasks. Like, setting up this high-adjacency tile helps me get the science legacy path now, but it'll still be good for lots of science and production to help me win faster in the next age. Same thing for placing wonders.

Something I've thought about in the past is that if we get a fourth age and the final culture win returns to the tourism idea we've had in 5 and 6, having great works stick around in some capacity could really play into this. Less so with codices, but if your relics and artifacts were all available in the fourth age to be displayed in some new building(s) for tourism, it'd retroactively make gathering them in their respective ages a lot more meaningful. And then if wonders give tourism too, you immediately have all three prior culture paths building into the endgame.

(This would not magically fix culture and the exploration and modern paths would still need some work to feel more interesting; really I just think it'd be fun to have things come back into play like that)
Ome thing with Great works and History in Layers they Should have done is have the Artifacts (at least the nonNatural Wonder ones) be from earlier Relics/Codexes. [and the Relics and Codexes should have been named after their situation of creation]
 
From my perspective, legacy paths should mirror the mechanics of Civ 6. Specific actions or objectives award points in the respective paths. Clearly, there should be many actions that award points. Completing the paths grants bonuses and the achievement of the Golden Age. Furthermore, victory should be developed across the three eras, and is achieved by following the legacy paths.
 
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