Lessons learned beating Emperor

[Skallagrimson]

Also (yes, i keep editing this post), I always have healthissues post bioligy in my production cities, because of the sheer profitability of farms. I get 1 for 2 food, that seems like a good deal every time. Is it wrong to think this way? I'd guess not... Im still not sure about the commerce cities though, you get +0 food, and +1, for usually 7-9 commerce (depends on rivers/financial), or -1 food, and +1 for 1 hammer and 7-9 gold. Do you let em grow into unhealthyness?

Each of your workshops in that city, had they been lumbermills with railroads, for every 2 you'd have had one extra health, allowing that much more growth. Even though this isn't the GP farm, a few extra engineers adding to the BASE hammers of a prod city ain't too shabby. But this of course means you have to rely more on the whip than on the chop, early-game. I've been told this is an absolute heresy of the chop religion, and my convocation to the Inquisition board is scheduled for the next full moon.

 

[Skallagrimson]

if you have a GE sitting around (and haven't already built Mining Inc)

Then you very very irrationally avoided Railroad, LOL.

I'm a *reformed* TGD-builder so I can see the viewpoint of those still wanting to build it, but as I climbed levels I knew I had to just... let... go.

I mitigate unhealth from power/coal as much as I can by trees though, so I can have my coal plant cake and eat it too (higher health cap). Now I'm getting +50% of railroaded lumbermills, and without drafting, infantry 1/turn.

We've now opened up Free Speech, cha-to-the-CHING.

Coal plants get a bad rap because people are scared of unhealthiness but ultimately all that matters are and if killing two population off gets you a net gain of production for the rest of the game and more importantly immediately ... you ALWAYS do it.

There are some mitigating factors as well that argue even more for the coal. With TGD you get unhealthy from the power *anyway* (which I think in vanilla was unhealthy-free power, hence the big draw). So if you want TGD to avoid unhealth, you get a rude awakening when you see a good amount of what you were hoping to avoid. Maybe 1 instead of 2 unhealth, but still, it's irritating that you burn all those hammers for that little bit of an edge.

And shortly after you are able to build TGD you are also able to build Recycling Plants, which don't totally eliminate health issues for non-environmentalism civics, but they bring them under control such that growth into remaining city tiles or working those extra few specialists, can now go forward. And then after Genetics, that's all she wrote, health schmealth. Grow as much as your food allows. Even with coal.

I mean to be fair I would be amazed if anyone gets to Assembly Line without having at least Compass + Optics + Scientific Method but I guess its possible. Still for most tech paths (in non-TGL scenarios) you're looking at a few extra techs between Assembly Line and Plastics. There's a whole lot of hammers going away between when you drop that 150 coal plant in each factory city and when you drop that 1750 TGD in whatever city you have with a river.

That's the breakdown

In my TGD-building days I used to religiously attach IW to a river city to allow that build, but not I just think of it as a health bonus, easily replaceable by a lakeside or oasis-side build, whatever gives me fresh agua. Flexibility to what the map allows is more than huge in the higher levels, it's gigantic.

 

[helemaalnicks]

Each of your workshops in that city, had they been lumbermills with railroads, for every 2 you'd have had one extra health, allowing that much more growth. Even though this isn't the GP farm, a few extra engineers adding to the BASE hammers of a prod city ain't too shabby. But this of course means you have to rely more on the whip than on the chop, early-game. I've been told this is an absolute heresy of the chop religion, and my convocation to the Inquisition board is scheduled for the next full moon.

ehm... but Id have to wait for railroad for this to work, and im not leaving 2 hammers per tile till railroads because of health problems... your approach doesn't make any sense to me tbh, because:

1. you'd have to tech railroad yourself, while I HIGHLY prefer an industrialism/flight beeline around that time
2. Your approach is too much long term, not enough short term imo. I start building workshops under replaceable parts, they start working nicely after chemistry, and they totally rock after communism, I don't like railroads.
3. Chopping forests rox... This was my 3rd city, as you can judge by the name "antium", and since I'm rome, at the time I got ironworking the wood from those forests was put to good use .

 

[Skallagrimson]

On a side note - One of the fun things about this forum (well about the internet in general really) is the people from different countries that post here. I wish more people would have their location by their avatar! I'm chuckling a little here because (and this is in NO WAY a dig at Scandanavian people - my Mom is a Swede-Finn!) of some of the guys with Scandanavian sounding names saying "save the forests", "build the dams - not the coal plants", etc. Maybe I'm reading too much into it but it would be funny to see a thread where we discussed how our real-world cultural experiences affect our Civ play! It's like some massive social experiment! Do you play or avoid certain civs because of it? Have a preference to build certain wonders or whatever because of it? Run certain civics or avoid them because of it? Probably a topic for a different part of this forum - but it can affect your strategy - no?

I'm an American of 1/2 German, 1/4 English, and 1/4 Scottish descent. But I'm a big fan of the Icelandic Sagas, and Egil Skallagrimson is one of my favourite heroes in those sagas. I'm amazed no one in Hollywood has made a movie yet about his Saga. It would outdo 13th Warrior or Beowulf if done right.

As for "keep the trees", that may partially be from an emotional desire not to clearcut (in the vein of an anarcho-primitivist who reads Derek Jensen extensively when between Jared Diamond books), but the emotion is backed up by growth strategy and hammers. If trees didn't give a health bonus I'd be a shameless clearcutter. And I already am for trees outside of any BFC.

 

[bestbrian]

The attraction of the TGD, for me, is a matter of how many cities will benefit. If I have alot of cities on a single continent (current game is 30+, and growing), then I can power all those cities for much less than the cost of individual coal plants, all while allowing them to construct other things. On other map types, this might not be optimal. Each game and map is different, and you have to play it to mazimize your strengths, minimize your weaknesses, and exploit your adversaries.

 

[Bleys]

I think gcm's idea of a PYL game would be pretty cool. Maybe we can ask TMIT to build us a map. It would have to be large though, and I suggest offering 2 American leaders and 2 English leaders, since I think the vast majority of CFC members fall into those 2 nationalities. Add 6 more European leaders, and a couple Asian leaders, and I think it would be a dynamite PYL. Heck, I may even try it myself, although I am a bit rusty working with WB files.

 

[Artichoker]

Then you very very irrationally avoided Railroad, LOL.

I'm a *reformed* TGD-builder so I can see the viewpoint of those still wanting to build it, but as I climbed levels I knew I had to just... let... go.

I mitigate unhealth from power/coal as much as I can by trees though, so I can have my coal plant cake and eat it too (higher health cap). Now I'm getting +50% of railroaded lumbermills, and without drafting, infantry 1/turn.

We've now opened up Free Speech, cha-to-the-CHING.



There are some mitigating factors as well that argue even more for the coal. With TGD you get unhealthy from the power *anyway* (which I think in vanilla was unhealthy-free power, hence the big draw). So if you want TGD to avoid unhealth, you get a rude awakening when you see a good amount of what you were hoping to avoid. Maybe 1 instead of 2 unhealth, but still, it's irritating that you burn all those hammers for that little bit of an edge.

And shortly after you are able to build TGD you are also able to build Recycling Plants, which don't totally eliminate health issues for non-environmentalism civics, but they bring them under control such that growth into remaining city tiles or working those extra few specialists, can now go forward. And then after Genetics, that's all she wrote, health schmealth. Grow as much as your food allows. Even with coal.



In my TGD-building days I used to religiously attach IW to a river city to allow that build, but not I just think of it as a health bonus, easily replaceable by a lakeside or oasis-side build, whatever gives me fresh agua. Flexibility to what the map allows is more than huge in the higher levels, it's gigantic.

Don't misquote me...I'm not the one who wrote those posts! Look again!

 

[Skallagrimson]

ehm... but Id have to wait for railroad for this to work, and im not leaving 2 hammers per tile till railroads because of health problems... your approach doesn't make any sense to me tbh, because:

1. you'd have to tech railroad yourself, while I HIGHLY prefer an industrialism/flight beeline around that time
2. Your approach is too much long term, not enough short term imo. I start building workshops under replaceable parts, they start working nicely after chemistry, and they totally rock after communism, I don't like railroads.
3. Chopping forests rox... This was my 3rd city, as you can judge by the name "antium", and since I'm rome, at the time I got ironworking the wood from those forests was put to good use .

1. If your empire is as big as your early game should have made it, you'll want RR transportation within your empire for defense purposes if nothing else. And you don't need RR to build lumbermills, just replaceable parts, so now are you trying to say you avoid rifling too? Come on...

2. Short term is for when the axe rush works. On the higher levels, it won't. And building workshops at the same time as you can build lumbermills, you really just intentionally lowered your growth cap. By whipping people who grow back instead of chopping what won't, I've now got about 4 tiles of 4 hammer lumbermills working, 16 HPT more than in the same city under your management because you can't grow into those tiles. 5 turns and the lack of chop pays for itself, in the MID-game, not even talking late-game here.

You don't like being able to send an infantry CG stack dozens more tiles per turn when on defense? Uhm... okay. Let's do multiplayer, hehe...

3. LIMITED chopping rox. Overchopping is sub-optimal. You'll learn sooner or later.

 

[Skallagrimson]

Don't misquote me...I'm not the one who wrote those posts! Look again!

I'm not sure how that happened. Weird forum bug there.

 

[feralminded]

The amount of chopping that is efficient is so map dependent its not funny. I mean if you start oceanside with three forest tiles odds are its very much worth your while to cut down every last tree next to your city. If you start in the middle of the world with maybe 1 hill in sight and a forest around you ... you're a fool if you chop them all down. Then there's everything in between ...

Chopping is really an art.

 

[UWHabs]

The amount of chopping that is efficient is so map dependent its not funny. I mean if you start oceanside with three forest tiles odds are its very much worth your while to cut down every last tree next to your city. If you start in the middle of the world with maybe 1 hill in sight and a forest around you ... you're a fool if you chop them all down. Then there's everything in between ...

Chopping is really an art.

But it depends what you need, again. My current game I captured Asoka's capital which I think had about 2 non-tree squares around it. But it's a double shrine city, so I want every darn square cottaged (I think they're almost all grasslands as well). Trees be damned! Once my 3-4 workers are done, there won't be a tree within a mile of that city.

 

[FlyinJohnnyL]

I take care of 6th level with the first GG. Ideally he started as a WII warrior when originally exploring, then he got Leadership (for faster XP gains), CI, and the Medic line, toward MIII and then WIII.

If you've got a warrior at woody II and you want to make him your super medic, what should you do promo wise when you attach the GG? Should you go ahead and get Woody 3, or should you just get to the medic promos, and get woody 3 after you have Medic 3?

 

[feralminded]

I'd go wood 3 immediately and get leadership and C1. From there you have C1 and 2 first strikes with which to do mop up to get the rest of your promotions. You're still a long ways from medic 3 but it should happen given a warmongering game.

 

[_invy_]

Stonehenge is usually not worth it unless you start with Mysticism and/or you're Industrious. That said it is very difficult to have time to hook up stone AND build it before the AI builds it so if you really need it then plan on just chopping it out and forget about the stone. Additionally Mysticism is a tech that is fairly easy to delay with forethought so be certain you NEED this wonder when investing for it.

The Great Wall is only useful if you are interested in an EE. The AI doesn't necessarily rush this one so if you're IND and have stone you may be able to pick it up really cheap (its like a chop away) but otherwise the hammers are usually better spent on settlers/workers/units.

That first sentence is a bit misleading, Stonehenge is worth it, it depends what are you after - and you don't need to have Mysticism or IND trait. For example I would built it to spread my borders easily (thats free 1/2 Culture trait for half of the game), and to get Great Prophet. With GP you then bulb yourself a religion and get free tech. Very much worth it, and its very easy way to bulb Theology.

Great Wall is just great for huge maps, barbarians on emperor+ can be nighmare and will be in most games. Extremelly useful, I think it should be mentioned. But it does pollute your GP pool. Best used with EE economy as you said.

Oracle is only useful for very specific slingshots. That said to get it you are giving up any chance at a power-rexx or early rush campaign. Sometimes it's still worth it but under most circumstances you're better off heading to writing.

In fact, you don't want to wait to connect Marble/Stone for Stonehenge, Great Wall or Oracle (you said this for Stonehenge). These wonders are cheap and you need to build them fast. If you wait to build Quarry and tech Masonry you have good chance to lose Stonehenge especially. You should probably put another tip, something like:

- If you want to build cheap early wonders like Stonehenge, Oracle, Great Wall, you should beeline right from the start and use forests chops/mines to build them. Delaying to get unecessary techs or connect that quarry might cost you the wonder.

The Pyramids are only useful if you are going for a non-Phi SE. Even then on Emperor you better have stone and/or be IND. Otherwise those hammers make a whole lot of settlers/workers/units.

They are very useful for Phi civilizations also, same as for non-Phi. You should not forget that Pyramids open Goverment civics, including Representation, Hereditary Rule, Police State. Representation is especially huge, +3 happy is awesome bonus. In fact, Representation also works exceptionally well with Slavery for early wars. Those +3 happy go long way to eliminate unhappy penalty for whipping.
That sentence about cost of Pyramids is very true.

 

[feralminded]

That first sentence is a bit misleading, Stonehenge is worth it, it depends what are you after - and you don't need to have Mysticism or IND trait. For example I would built it to spread my borders easily (thats free 1/2 Culture trait for half of the game), and to get Great Prophet. With GP you then bulb yourself a religion and get free tech. Very much worth it, and its very easy way to bulb Theology.

Well how should I change the verbiage? I said stonehenge is usually not worth it. I can't speak for everyone but I know for 80% or more like 95% of my emperor games I don't go stonehenge it really depends on my leader and start. Generally speaking if I have the opportunity I Rexx hard but again that's just me.

In fact, you don't want to wait to connect Marble/Stone for Stonehenge, Great Wall or Oracle (you said this for Stonehenge). These wonders are cheap and you need to build them fast. If you wait to build Quarry and tech Masonry you have good chance to lose Stonehenge especially. You should probably put another tip, something like:

- If you want to build cheap early wonders like Stonehenge, Oracle, Great Wall, you should beeline right from the start and use forests chops/mines to build them. Delaying to get unecessary techs or connect that quarry might cost you the wonder.

Will do after this post.

They are very useful for Phi civilizations also, same as for non-Phi. You should not forget that Pyramids open Goverment civics, including Representation, Hereditary Rule, Police State. Representation is especially huge, +3 happy is awesome bonus. In fact, Representation also works exceptionally well with Slavery for early wars. Those +3 happy go long way to eliminate unhappy penalty for whipping.
That sentence about cost of Pyramids is very true.

I would have to say if the only reason you're going for the 'mids is for the rep based happiness you're probably misusing it or at best just throwing a lot of hammers away that could buy you a lot of troops. I mean honestly if I wasn't going to go Rep for my specialists I'd consider the 'mids for Police State warmongering. I mean you definitely don't get the 'mids for HR since you can tech that nearly as fast as you can build them and US just isn't that compelling until ... well ... until you'd normally tech Democracy anyhow.

No doubt 'mids still helps PHI based SE ... albeit a little bit less than those who settle their specialists. I will edit that one as well.

 

[gcm4738]

Hey feral - First of all, glad to see your thread has got some stars by it now - I voted for it!

I think you have to be a little careful in watering down your original strategy tips. If I understand what you were after with your "80/20" thing, you meant to give advice that would apply in at least 80% of the situations.

What I really liked about your post was that if it erred at all, it did it to steer people away from things they were likely doing that were costing them dearly - like building wonders at the wrong time in the wrong situation - so easy and tempting to do. The problem I had was that I quickly got good enough at Noble that I could build any wonder, any building - city specialization was virtually meaningless. I'm sure we've all gotten to that point on various levels.

Building SH, or founding a religion, etc... Sure these things can provide some benefit, and depending on your strategy and situation (and so many other things) can help more than they hurt - but the point is that, if you've just moved up a level, you won't necessarily be able to accurately judge when to build them and the therefore risk outweighs the benefit - better off to build another settler and worker with those hammers. That's what I got out of your advice and I think you should stay true to that!

It's a great suggestion to people that they first play some stable games using the basic, stripped-down approach until they have some success and *then* start adding the wonders.

 

[feralminded]

Well yeah that was the real point. I mean there are players here who are vastly superior to me who can force their way through likely any strategy on Emperor under far less than ideal circumstances. That said this thread is really for the person looking to make that initial step and that kind of person is going to need to be fairly strict and cautious about their approach. Honestly my first emperor wins were under VERY contrived circumstances (I regen'ed until I had stone so I could bag 'mids and from there I knew my SE well enough to win). Now I'm at the point where I have a fair shot at winning Emperor under many (I won't say most) circumstances and am winning Immortal under contrived circumstances. I could probably win Monarch under most circumstances and know I can win Prince with virtually everything against me. Three months ago I couldn't have said that so obviously the evolution is there. Hopefully with more Immortal experience I can get it to the point where I will win under many circumstances and start looking towards Deity. Its all about growth and when you first start on a level you need to be REALLY strict and even somewhat contrived.

I am definitely trying to avoid specific strategies here for that reason. Let people get to emperor however they like be it CE, SSE, Phi-SE, hybrid, RE, EE, whatever they can do. The tips are just trying to outline the pitfalls along the way.

 

[JammerUno]

There are no strategies that are set in stone, some tactics are, but no strategies, they are totally dependant on the map.

For example, I recently played a game as Willem/emperor where I found myself on an small continent (mayabe 6 cities worth), separeted by sea and a ton of jungle from the AI. Here, I didn't found my 4th city until in the ADs, I did manage to get a commanding techlead in this time by using marble for the oracle (took aesthetiscs) then parthenon and GL and spammed GSs and academies, effectively raising my bpt by about 40% overall. Sure, the AI was catching up because I'd sacrificed long term advantage (more cities) for a midterm tech advantage, but that didn't matter when I hit their obsolete units with rifles.

In pretty much any other circumstance, this either wouldn't have worked, or would have been a bad course of action, but in this instance, it worked. Recommending emperor players not to build the henge isn't good advice, a settled GP gives a decent early advantage, and with the saving in hammers it provides, you might actually expand faster after it. Sometimes building the oracle without marble makes sense, but if you plan to take the aesthetics route to nab the parthenon and the GL, you're better of teching masonry earlier since you'll need it anyway. There's no point in building the thing without marble it you're gonna tech masonry in the foreseeable future anyway.

Building the wonders that give you a net benefit and not just building them for kicks is a instinct I would think most players at the monarch level have.

that being said, there's this:
On the chopping vs. whipping discussion I would only comment one doesn't exclude the other. Forests are for chopping, unhappy people for whipping. There's no reason to have either within the borders of your empire.

 

[_invy_]

@Feralminded: Sorry if I sounded a bit negative, I didn't intend to. Consider it positive criticism

About that Stonehenge you did said usually and that is correct. What I meant to say is to concentrate on ''smaller'' things casual players don't notice.

ie. Stonehenge usually is waste of time. But if you want religion and can't get it on say Emperor+ that is good way. You will get free tech with Great Prophet. That tech is great for trading and getting other expensive techs. You will want shrine also for your religion to get those gold coins. Stonehenge will help you to get 2nd GP.

Those are the effect that weaker players won't perhaps see, it would be good to concentrate on those. Tips like these helps you overcome AI bonuses.

Keep up the good work.

 

[bestbrian]

@Feralminded: Sorry if I sounded a bit negative, I didn't intend to. Consider it positive criticism

About that Stonehenge you did said usually and that is correct. What I meant to say is to concentrate on ''smaller'' things casual players don't notice.

ie. Stonehenge usually is waste of time. But if you want religion and can't get it on say Emperor+ that is good way. You will get free tech with Great Prophet. That tech is great for trading and getting other expensive techs. You will want shrine also for your religion to get those gold coins. Stonehenge will help you to get 2nd GP.

Those are the effect that weaker players won't perhaps see, it would be good to concentrate on those. Tips like these helps you overcome AI bonuses.

Keep up the good work.

Also worth making a play for if you're Charismatic.