Let's discuss the Shwedagon Paya Wonder

[Hawe Hawe]

I would rate most of the new wonders from BtS among the best, but i am not sure about the Shwedagon Paya. From the BtS-Info-Center:
Shwedagon Paya [Meditation, Aesthetics]: Grants access to all religion civics. Its home city is more likely to generate Great Prophets. Constructed twice as quickly with Gold.

It requires a lot of hammers (same as Pyramids). I can see some strategies for this wonder, but are they worth the investment?

1. run free religion extremely early: this is probably the best you can do with the Sh.P., it is the only mid to late game civic from the religious column, +10% science can be very strong and it leaves you out of religious troubles with your neighbours.

2. ignore the religious tech tree (polytheism, monotheism, theology, divine right and maybe even priesthood). get meditation immediatly and found buddhism. You can already build monasteries and spread your religion, thats enough for the beginning. You probably will want priesthood too for temples, but its cheap. This strategy allows a focused research on war techs or economic techs andd saves you many beakers if you don't care for the nice wonders on the religious path.

My problems with this wonder are:
-Aesthetics comes to late. And i would rather build the other two wonders (Partenenon and Zeus-Statue) available with it.
-Too expensive. Without gold and/or industrial i won't build it
-The religious civics (apart from free religion) are all available quite early with normal gameplay.
-The wonder is on the path to liberalism. I choose this beeline anyway, so when i have built the wonder free religion is normally not far away.
-The civics alone are useless without religion, so you can't really ignore the religion spread. Probably you want to found one yourself. So your religion choices are limited to buddhism, confucianism or taoism, because you need those techs anyway.
- The pyramids are by far stronger from the two civic-wonders.
- going free religion early leaves other strong religious strategies out, this means no Organized religion, no theocracy, no Spiral Minarett or University of sankore and no Apostolic palace
- Great prophet point are not very interesting if you don't care for religions.

So what are your experiences?

PS: Besides game mechanics it has a very cool wonder video, especially the music. And with the protests going on in Burma/Myanmar at the moment it is strange to see this wonder on TV so often.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

The wonder isn't on the path to Liberalism, it requires Aesthetics, (not part of the beeline)

The Pyramids are definitely stronger
Free Religion is definitely the major advantage, (Theocracy+Pacifism is somewhat lesser)

Overall it probably should be cheaper

Little experience with it, I can see pairing it with Buddhism/Confucianism, either getting Med first or Oracling Confucianism

 

[DaveMcW]

I'd say the best use is to get early Pacifism if you don't plan to lightbulb Phlilosophy.

 

[Honkoid]

I just had a game with Willem, where Shwedagon Paya came in really handy. I just conquered most of the Celts very early, grabbing the buddhist holy city. I had three other civs on the continent (medium map, 8 civs) which all adopted a religion other than buddhism. Since even in the early game 3 religions were founded on this continent and they spreaded in some of my cities, I thougt the Shwedagon was a good option for early free religion, thus having the research bonus and a high happy cap. And not to forget not too many trouble with my neighbours.

Later in the game it turned out that no less than 6 religions were founded on my continent! Waging war was significantly easier, since war weariness was a bit less of a threat to my economy. Although I don't really remember wether I already had liberalism when starting the wars
Despite that, early free religion and therefore more happiness might help the same way during a medieval war.

And another thing I forgot to mention is that I had gold.

In retrospect I consider the Shwedagon Paya one of the stronger moves in that game.

It maybe a bit of a niche wonder, since it is not that often that you have such mixed religions in your empire, but I think it has its moments.

 

[eewallace]

I go for it if I have gold the build it fast, and generally run pacifism as early as possible. (I also tend to avoid free religion until late in the game, because I like to get a state religion, at least one shrine, and spiral minaret.)

 

[Sjaramei]

I think i built it once....?
Never used it though, seems weak to me. Free religion is the only thing i could consider it for, but thats if i lack happiness, which is the best benefit from it, the science is not very much that early. (i usually have lightbulbed philosophy at the time i get Aesthetics anyway so pacifism is of no use to me)

 

[TheWilltoAct]

could be nice cuz in theory if all you wanted from the religious techs were the civics... then perhaps you could cruise through the sections of the tech tree that interest you more quickly??? idk...

Doesn't seem real good to me... I once held off getting Organized Religion until I built that wonder ... probably a mistake to hold off on such a swell civic

 

[Polycrates]

Shwedagon Paya is my favourite of the new wonders, BUT it pretty much requires Spiritual to make the most of it. With Spiritual, though, it can pretty much become a cornerstone of your entire game - and that's pretty damn powerful. It's very expensive without gold, so it's worth prioritising sites with gold even more than you usually would - you're certainly more likely to get it than stone or marble. If you don't have gold, marble can be used in lieu, since it justifies taking Aesthetics early with the other wonders along that path (Parthenon, Great Library, National Epic, Heroic Epic).

Perhaps the most powerful aspect of the Spiritual trait is the ability to freely change between the religious civics. Org Rel for periods of building, and for quickly spreading a religion; theocracy for a period of military buildup; pacifism for going nuts with great people; and free religion for happiness, diplomacy and science. In particular, short but intense bursts of caste system/pacifism can generate masses of GPPs empire-wide with minimal pain. It's a fantastic civic line to switch back and forth between as the empire switches its production focus.
But it requires a hell of a lot of teching, a lot of it down an otherwise pretty useless pathway, just when you could be nabbing vital economic techs (currency and CoL in particular) to really get the empire on its feet.
On higher levels in bts, you're extremely unlikely to grab one of the early 3 religions, and even if you do, it's hardly worth it since religion teching hampers getting worker techs and so stunts vital early growth, the money from a shine is barely worth the rigmarole, and the AI has become fanatical about spreading its own religions. All that missionary spam means two things: first, you can't rely on passive spread, and you're not going to keep up in the proselytising stakes without massive investment, so you run the strong risk of becoming a religious outcast; and second, that missionary spam includes you, so it's easy to sit back and wait a bit, then become part of a nice strong diplomatic bloc.

So playing the atheist Spiritual game can be well worth it, and that's where Shwedagon comes in. Beelining Aesthetics straight after Writing is a bit painful to do, but it works out okay since it's a prerequisite for the cheap but fantastic Literature, and it's also one of the best early trading techs. The AI doesn't prioritise it or the SP (and even less priority on the Parthenon, which is another great wonder for this approach) so there shouldn't be any trouble nabbing it. So you get Theocracy, Pacifism and Free Religion well ahead of time (and OR not too late). A burst of OR and whips can get a religion spread all across the empire to reap the benefits, and then you've got all sorts of options. Theocracy can really make the difference to a BC-era military offensive, with a 25% boost to melee units city raiding, the ability to immediately take cover and shock for a similar advantage in the field, and Flanking II for chariots, to make them excellent pre-catapult softeners.
Early pacifism is even better. All GPPs can be filtered through the double-speed, right from the get-go. So a couple of great people will follow very quickly, and there's no need to "waste" one bulbing philosophy early. The double-speed on the cheaper early Great People also lets you get the more difficult Great People much more easily (spy, prophet, engineer - the ones that normally only allow a single specialist), which can be very nice indeed (especially the spy!). Or just lots of academies/settled scientists/merchants/etc
Early Free Religion can sometimes be nice too. It's good on a religiously-divided continent, since it helps you stay neutral, and it gives happiness regardless of the religion (even more happiness if you occasionally switch back to OR and spread both). And it's very nice once you start meeting heathens from over the seas. The science boost is nice too - you can get a good tech boost by running science at 0 and building cash while enjoying the benefits of a religious civic, then switching to FR to run deficit research with all your research commerce flowing through the 10% bonus.

Without any urgent need for Philosophy or Liberalism, you can then focus on other tech lines. Literature for military and even more great people, currency for money, construction for cats and elephants, and the low road for crossbows, maces and knights, as well as the exceptional trading opportunities of early optics and astronomy (especially with free religion).

So yeah, extremely worthwhile for a spiritual civ (except saladin and the egyptians), to the point where it easily outweighs golden ages and christo redentor to make Spiritual even more absurdly powerful in bts than it was before.

 

[KMadCandy]

I'd say the best use is to get early Pacifism if you don't plan to lightbulb Phlilosophy.

that's the only reason i'd consider it, but i haven't bothered with it yet.

as far as early free religion helping out with diplomacy, that's no different than having no state religion. you don't get FR's 10% science boost and extra happy per religion in a city, but building that wonder for the sake of politics is IMO not justified.

 

[cheffster]

Totally useless IMHO expect for the free +2brithrate preist.

I actually never ever switch FR, and almost always have org rel. +SM/UoS/AP

At least in my style of play I never bother with it, except if I have nothing else to build +gold/indus strait.

 

[Martinus]

Yeah, I'd say this is useful when you are planning to run a trade route variant of CE and aim for diplomatic or space ship victory, by allowing you to switch to FR very early and simply remove yourself from the world of religious wars.

It's not worth it for any other civics, imo, since you can bubble both Pacifism and Theocracy very earily and easily.

 

[troytheface]

Based more than a few games on aquiring this and side stepping religion.
Also Zeus comes with aesthetics as well so you can forge wonders until these two and have a duet of strategem wonders.
Ride on free religion ...have a big military ...absorb others missionaries.
Can't remember if i won those games tho.

 

[carl corey]

as far as early free religion helping out with diplomacy, that's no different than having no state religion. you don't get FR's 10% science boost and extra happy per religion in a city, but building that wonder for the sake of politics is IMO not justified.

Actually Free Religion is different than no religion for diplomacy: the AIs cannot ask you to adopt a religion if you're running Free Religion. It's a slight bonus but I thought it's worth mentioning for completeness.

Overall I agree it's not a hugely powerful wonder. It might be interesting if you do go down the religious path and want early Pacifism to help you generate enough Great Prophets to bulb Theology and Divine Right and build a shrine. But yeah, it's nothing like the Pyramids, mainly because three of the four civics enabled by the Pyramids come so late in the game so there's no alternate way to get them early on.

 

[Hawe Hawe]

I think the AI doesn't use the effects of this wonder at all: I have never seen an AI-Civ switch to Free religion early.
I think I'll give a Free religion early strategy a try: beeline aesthetics and let al foreign religions spread to me. Build all monasteries you can and you will soon have +20% science in those cities. You could combine it with a trade economy, because open borders with everyone is helpful.

 

[alpaca]

I think the AI doesn't use the effects of this wonder at all: I have never seen an AI-Civ switch to Free religion early.
I think I'll give a Free religion early strategy a try: beeline aesthetics and let al foreign religions spread to me. Build all monasteries you can and you will soon have +20% science in those cities. You could combine it with a trade economy, because open borders with everyone is helpful.

I saw it quite a few times, Mansa is a prime example for doing that.

Anyways, I find the usefulness of the Shwedagon Paya to be mediocre. As you guys mentioned, the only really worthwhile use in my opinion is to get free religion from it early for the happiness bonus. Sometimes Theocracy is nice, too, because I won't always want to research Theology (playing with TT disabled) but I'd only build it when being Industrious or having Gold and a very high-production city that can pump it out in 12 turns or so (because it has some decent GPP for the prophets).

 

[TheWilltoAct]

I saw it quite a few times, Mansa is a prime example for doing that.

Anyways, I find the usefulness of the Shwedagon Paya to be mediocre. As you guys mentioned, the only really worthwhile use in my opinion is to get free religion from it early for the happiness bonus. Sometimes Theocracy is nice, too, because I won't always want to research Theology (playing with TT disabled) but I'd only build it when being Industrious or having Gold and a very high-production city that can pump it out in 12 turns or so (because it has some decent GPP for the prophets).

Yeah, I second that bit about Theocracy... it's rare that I will actually research that tech as it's not that useful imho... though the civic is excellent so maybe my strategy doesn't make sense haha. In any case good ol Sweaty Papaya can get you that benefit w/o wasting .

 

[KMadCandy]

Actually Free Religion is different than no religion for diplomacy: the AIs cannot ask you to adopt a religion if you're running Free Religion. It's a slight bonus but I thought it's worth mentioning for completeness.

they can ask you to adopt their favorite religious civic tho, which converts you to the religion you were last using (or to NSR if you didn't have one when you went to FR). i do that all the time when trying to get diplo votes *giggle*.

i wonder if they can ask you to use civics that you know only thru the wonder, not from the tech? edit after quick test: i guess civics you can use only via wonder, not tech, are subject to demands/bribes/espionage. i found a recent save where i know fascism, HC didn't but he had the pyramids. i converted to police state, and it shows up on his trade screen too. redlined of course since it goes against everything he stands for.

so once you have the wonder, you've now opened the door to demands for new civic change demands, even if the whole point of building the wonder was to have early FR and not get into diplomatic messes! it's the only one of the new wonders i haven't built, and it might stay that way *giggle*.

 

[vicawoo]

Free religions is happy faces, I guess.

 

[TheWilltoAct]

interesting observation KMad

 

[UncleJJ]

I built this once, unintentionally . I was Gilgamesh and had Gold in my capital so my production city was assigned to make a wonder and lose, so that I'd get the gold. I built it to within one turn and then assigned other stuff like troops and then one turn forgot to check so I ended up with a wonder I didn't want and couldn't use as I had already researched the religous civics I wanted (OR and Theocracy).

So it just sat there for 100 turns slowly throwing out 2 GGPs / turn with no hope of making a GP against my other cities. In the end I built the National Park in the city, although it only had 6 forests left, since it could build the NP and other buildings for mass spies and that gave me a moderate second or third GP farm. As others have said it is a weak wonder and should only be built if you have Gold and want FR early while not going for the traditional Liberalism race. Perhaps the best use is to dummy build it like I tried to do but don't be as lazy as me and check each turn or queue the other units properly.