Let's talk about ages and dedications...

[Zenstrive]

I have no qualms about current age's systems except the fact that from industrial age onwards you really need to wage war to earn golden ages. Many era points are related to battles and status of being at war. This easily put me in dark age in industrial age until I wage endless war until I win, and being in heroic age and golden ages afterward. Also air units are mean era point generating machines.

 

[Staal]

However... the huge difference with ages is down to loyalty. It is easy to underestimate this puppy.

What do you mean? I am clearly missing something.

 

[Victoria]

What do you mean? I am clearly missing something.

In a golden age you cities exude 1.5x loyalty and in a dark 1/2. You pillage a neighbors lands and districts at the start of an era, then back out and push for a golden yourself, then go in and just capture their largest city and the rest fall like dominoes.
Who needs to wait for 20 artefacts, this can be done much earlier with any civ... but naturally some are immune or dangerous.

 

[Arraz]

Well I really like the current system of agees even if it isnt perfectly balanced.

The point of Rise & Fall was to alternate between golden ages and darker ages for the same civ. (That's why golden ages increase the era score aim and do not give you any way to increase your era score)
People having dark ages should not be penalized to the point of having a hard time getting a normal age next. (which would be the direct consequence of something like -x% science or a loss of a card)

Most of the systems you give are extreme penalties which would condemn civs into eternal dark ages or give ways to get endless golden ages.

The current system give a way for a golden age civ to take advantage of a dark age civ (loyalty) without going too overboard

 

[Lily_Lancer]

The age system makes Holy Site the best district. In Golden age monumentality is king, while in dark age you benefit from +75% science card.

 

[Staal]

In a golden age you cities exude 1.5x loyalty and in a dark 1/2. You pillage a neighbors lands and districts at the start of an era, then back out and push for a golden yourself, then go in and just capture their largest city and the rest fall like dominoes.
Who needs to wait for 20 artefacts, this can be done much earlier with any civ... but naturally some are immune or dangerous.

I.e. you are in a Golden and they are in a Dark Age?

 

[Victoria]

I.e. you are in a Golden and they are in a Dark Age?

Yes, it seems to work well, takes a bit of patience and movement care but also preparation for the moment then making the most of their greed.

 

[sethryclaus]

the huge difference with ages is down to loyalty. It is easy to underestimate this puppy.

For a mere handful of grievance I will have all his cities

Yep, if you're playing Eleanor and the AI gets a dark age when you get heroic, you can almost conquer them in a single age with spies + bread & circuses depending on how large they are. Mapuche can probably punish via war in a similar way.

I have to imagine that the reason the different ages feel hollow is that the Loyalty system is something that's relatively "solved" by most people here. We all know how to play so it's never an issue, even when we are in dark ages and the neighbor in a golden.
You also don't want dark ages to be actively punishing in realms of science/culture/etc - not only could that approach lead to cascading dark ages, but it definitely takes on a stereotype of what these ages are.

What if dark/golden ages affected rate of tile growth?

Maybe your religion should be stronger during a dark age and weaker durin a golden

..and/or your people being easier to convert during a dark age (seeking answers) but also during a golden age (open minded) - the dull normal age are to be prefered for any conservative religion.

I have no qualms about current age's systems except the fact that from industrial age onwards you really need to wage war to earn golden ages.

I think all of these comments are about loyalty being a disconnected system. Diplomatic favor is kind of the same deal. Just to add to the random mix:

• there's a distinction between "point-based" age bonuses and eureka/inspiration style bonuses
• probably can't relate ages to science, culture or commerce because it'd be/is too OP
• loyalty and amenities are thematically & mechanically very similar already (amenities already affects loyalty)
• religious spread, tile growth and combat effectiveness are all things that seem intuitively related to loyalty

Thinking about this and having spent some time balancing modlists in the past, I'd start with this and playtest:

• merge loyalty pressure into amenities but base amenity bonuses on accumulated loyalty (i.e. amenities is the change, loyalty is the current value)
• golden, normal & dark ages just affect amenities, no weird bonuses etc
• amenities control tile growth
• loyalty bonuses/maluses for founded religions (not external religions)
• at the highest amenity level, give builders an extra charge when built
• keep eureka and wonder style age gains but remove current minor bonuses
• grant minor bonuses for doing things relevant to that age (for example, industrial age or later buildings is a minor bonus that currently works this way)
• give spies a fake news operation that modifies age points in later eras when there are less minor bonuses to be had - this also gives spies another thing to do on home turf as well as a way to cap runaway civs
• monuments grant +1 amenity not culture - personally I think theatre squares are a bit underpowered in the early game and there's no city center equivalent to the granary, probably because the monument is needed for tile growth
• allow spending diplomatic favor to increase/decrease loyalty of your/their cities - this might redeem favor in one fell swoop
• nerf Colosseum (it would just be way too OP with these changes)
• re-balance unique improvements bonuses etc where appropriate

TBH, the more I think about this, the more I want to make a mod like this. It is truly silly that loyalty and amenities are separate now that I think about it.

If you are just gonna flip a tile you may as well play scrabble. Sorry a bit flippant of me.

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