Leveraging protective trait

[D Wolf]

Then you'll need to crank out the crossbows as soon as you can and just research feudalism and theocracy in the meantime. In my latest game I was attacking Wang Kon (who is protective) on Noble level with crossbow-rushing (I skipped bringing catapults) and won over all but 2 of his cities before he teched up to feud himself. I actually used the oracle to give me aesthetics, from then I very quickly got the Great Library in my capital, greatly lessening the time it took for me to snag feud and theo.

 

[futurehermit]

Protective really shines in the gunpowder era.

Early on it can be useful if you start near Shaka or Monty or don't have copper/horses to deal with barbs.

Castles are decent now in BtS so cheap walls and castles is semi-useful where they weren't before.

 

[vicawoo]

So crossbow rushes work when you are vastly out-teching the opponent? I've been getting machinery before 1 AD, but that still doesn't leave a lot of time. I think people might be better off sword/catapult rushing. Crossbows seem best at fighting off massive axe stacks.

Here's my suggestion for a crossbow "rush": if you can, oracle metal casting. If you get a gold mine second city, 3rd city has to be production. Cottage your capital; machinery is expensive and don't overexpand. Go iron working before machinery, and once you get it, start pumping out swords (prebuild 2 settlers). Once you got enough of machinery researched, plop down the settlers into decent production cities and get the barracks/granary going, and have them pump out swords. Once you get machinery, produce/whip 3-4 crossbows, attack.

If you need catapults (protective civ) consider going monarchy first (still oracle metal casting) and then go ironworking, mathematics, construction, machinery. Remember, you'll have limited crossbows early on, so don't waste them.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

Protective really shines in the gunpowder era.

Early on it can be useful if you start near Shaka or Monty or don't have copper/horses to deal with barbs.

Castles are decent now in BtS so cheap walls and castles is semi-useful where they weren't before.

I'm starting to think castles are incredibly useful. I built them in every city to increase espionage and the side effect was that my power increased dramatically. Ghandi who had refused to vassalize to me after centuries of war suddenly volunteered to become my vassal. Montezuma and Suleiman both vassalized to me after less than five turns of war and capturing a couple of cities only. My only explanation so far is that while my army is no bigger than I am used to, my huge number of castles is somehow scaring them.

"Yes I know we have guns, and lots of them. And our cities are scarcely touched. And we have cannon. But they have LOTS of BIG STONE BUILDINGS!! SURRENDER NOW!!"

 

[vicawoo]

I was curious about this, so I found the post explaining power and other demographics.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=163098

(For BTS 3.02)
1000 soldiers- Trading Post, Shale Plant, Totem Pole
2000 soldiers- Walls, Dry Dock, Forge, Factory, Stable, Mint, Assembly Plant, Industrial Park, Levee, Dike
3000 soldiers- Dun, Barracks, Ikhanda, Citadel
4000 soldiers- Mt. Rushmore, Red Cross, Iron works, Ger, Statue of Zeus
6000 soldiers- Military Acadamy
8000 soldiers- Heroic Epic, Chichen Itza, Scotland Yard, West Point
10000 soldiers- Great Wall, Cristor Redentor, Moai Statues

Differences in Brief – Between Vanilla and Warlords Castle go from 2000 to 0 and Barracks from 4000 to 3000. No changes to existing building between Warlords and BTS. Warlords and BTS add new buildings.

Hmmm, turns out castles used to give 2000 soldiers (same as walls, spearmen, archers, chariot, galleys) but now give 0. Come on, Fireaxis, give me something to work with! At least make protective scary.

 

[MrFelony]

do machine guns count as gunpowder units? i was ina game with saladin and his machine guns didnt have any protective bonuses

 

[kniteowl]

no Machine Guns are Siege units

 

[InvisibleStalke]

I was curious about this, so I found the post explaining power and other demographics.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=163098

(For BTS 3.02)
1000 soldiers- Trading Post, Shale Plant, Totem Pole
2000 soldiers- Walls, Dry Dock, Forge, Factory, Stable, Mint, Assembly Plant, Industrial Park, Levee, Dike
3000 soldiers- Dun, Barracks, Ikhanda, Citadel
4000 soldiers- Mt. Rushmore, Red Cross, Iron works, Ger, Statue of Zeus
6000 soldiers- Military Acadamy
8000 soldiers- Heroic Epic, Chichen Itza, Scotland Yard, West Point
10000 soldiers- Great Wall, Cristor Redentor, Moai Statues

Differences in Brief – Between Vanilla and Warlords Castle go from 2000 to 0 and Barracks from 4000 to 3000. No changes to existing building between Warlords and BTS. Warlords and BTS add new buildings.

Hmmm, turns out castles used to give 2000 soldiers (same as walls, spearmen, archers, chariot, galleys) but now give 0. Come on, Fireaxis, give me something to work with! At least make protective scary.

That seems like an ommission - I guess it was the tons of walls I built that made a difference then.

 

[Thyrwyn]

For what it's worth: Sitting Bull will stymy Rome, easily. Defended by CG III, Drill I archers (Barracks & Totem Pole) and Combat I Dog Soldiers his cities are a real pain in the ****.

Currently playing Augustus on a Large Monarch map. Sitting Bull is my nearest neighbor. I even got the "all melee units gain Cover" special event when I was exploring with my starting Warrior. (Yes, I was psyched: Praetorians with free Cover? Woohoo!)

I still had an atrocious rate of attrition as I ground my way through Sitting Bull's cities. Sitting Bull really is the un-rushable leader -- though he can still be choked

 

[Thyrwyn]

That seems like an ommission - I guess it was the tons of walls I built that made a difference then.

It does seem like an omission, given that the Citadel is listed. . .

 

[vicawoo]

Oh the changes: castles from 2000 to 0 blurb is quoted, so it must be true.

I tried another protective game, but I was on a tiny peninsula whose only land entrance was blocked by a mountain. I decided to have fun and go pyramids and skip tech trading, lost liberalism to mansa by 1 turn because I was going to democracy as a free tech.

 

[futurehermit]

just attack sitting bull mid-to-late game when he has fallen behind on tech like he does in pretty much every game.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

Finished up my Charlemagne game and I am still surprised how effective protective is for late game warring. My preferred approach now is:

- Use tanks to take an AI city
- Leave tanks outside city though, don't go in. Use a guerilla 2 drill defender to protect tank stack.
- Put one or two CG3Drill2 Marines in the city.
- Let the AI hordes die in huge numbers as the marines slaughter attackers - usually killing at least six to one. With AI cavalry I had a marine slaughter 10 of them without taking damage and eventually dying to enemy tanks much later.
- Once the AI regains the city, city raider tanks take it back and repeat until the AI sends no counterattacking troops. Usually the enemy units in the city are damaged and the kill rate on my counterattack is 100%.

After the enemy is exhausted, phase 2 involves taking lots of cities until they capitulate. A single CG3 defender is usually enough to hold a city at this point. Drill 4 parachutes make pretty good city attackers - faster than tanks.

Of course it helped with Charlemagne that I had 7 settled great generals by then in my HE city.

 

[Hackapell]

Finished up my Charlemagne game and I am still surprised how effective protective is for late game warring. My preferred approach now is:

- Use tanks to take an AI city
- Leave tanks outside city though, don't go in. Use a guerilla 2 drill defender to protect tank stack.
- Put one or two CG3Drill2 Marines in the city.
- Let the AI hordes die in huge numbers as the marines slaughter attackers - usually killing at least six to one. With AI cavalry I had a marine slaughter 10 of them without taking damage and eventually dying to enemy tanks much later.
- Once the AI regains the city, city raider tanks take it back and repeat until the AI sends no counterattacking troops. Usually the enemy units in the city are damaged and the kill rate on my counterattack is 100%.

After the enemy is exhausted, phase 2 involves taking lots of cities until they capitulate. A single CG3 defender is usually enough to hold a city at this point. Drill 4 parachutes make pretty good city attackers - faster than tanks.

Of course it helped with Charlemagne that I had 7 settled great generals by then in my HE city.

Slightly off-topic, but do Rathuses allow you to have a spy specialist?

 

[futurehermit]

Finished up my Charlemagne game and I am still surprised how effective protective is for late game warring. My preferred approach now is:

- Use tanks to take an AI city
- Leave tanks outside city though, don't go in. Use a guerilla 2 drill defender to protect tank stack.
- Put one or two CG3Drill2 Marines in the city.
- Let the AI hordes die in huge numbers as the marines slaughter attackers - usually killing at least six to one. With AI cavalry I had a marine slaughter 10 of them without taking damage and eventually dying to enemy tanks much later.
- Once the AI regains the city, city raider tanks take it back and repeat until the AI sends no counterattacking troops. Usually the enemy units in the city are damaged and the kill rate on my counterattack is 100%.

After the enemy is exhausted, phase 2 involves taking lots of cities until they capitulate. A single CG3 defender is usually enough to hold a city at this point. Drill 4 parachutes make pretty good city attackers - faster than tanks.

Of course it helped with Charlemagne that I had 7 settled great generals by then in my HE city.

Yes, protective is quite good later in the game. But of course that is why it is seen as a weaker trait because early game > late game. If you play the early game right usually you can be in a strong position to win later in the game regardless. Of course that may not apply to immortal/deity level, but then most people on these forums don't play on those levels

 

[InvisibleStalke]

Slightly off-topic, but do Rathuses allow you to have a spy specialist?

Yes - but for this game I was running cottages instead except in my GP farms.

 

[InvisibleStalke]

Yes, protective is quite good later in the game. But of course that is why it is seen as a weaker trait because early game > late game. If you play the early game right usually you can be in a strong position to win later in the game regardless. Of course that may not apply to immortal/deity level, but then most people on these forums don't play on those levels

True - but it is advertised as a worthless trait, not one that comes into its own later in the game.

Also strength of trait <> fun of trait. And a trait that enhances late game warring adds a lot of fun to me - late game warring can otherwise be a dull slog. With protective my vast collection of stone walls plus my ultra strong defenders means that modern wars are quick, brutal, decisive and fun. I have never seen warfare where four civs in succession capitulated in 5 turns or so.

 

[vicawoo]

Started another Saladin game. Nice cottage capital. Oracle metal casting, researched monarchy, then IW machinery.
After my first GP, I worked all my population, so no GP points, unfortunately.

Thankfully, one of the opponents was Alexander, and look! No archers until really late. Churchill declared war on Alexander, asked me to join a few turns later. I joined, Churchill makes peace the next turn. He sends a stack of 5 units against a city with 2 swordsmen and a crossbow (honestly, I can't make that many crossbows this early). I rush a city wall, just in case. I'm not going CG1 in favor of drill and shock.
I gradually whittle down his army near the border, but I keep losing highly promoted crossbows. Honestly, drills 2 and 3 aren't amazing. Much later, (I have construction and code of laws), I finally take 1 freaking city. I try to take a second city, he has longbows, way after all the other AI. My last attack used 2 suicide cats, but my crossbows were still way below odds. Hannibal has declared war, but it's not a huge problem.

Lessons: drill doesn't trump equal numbers of combat promotion. Maybe it's because my second city was a desert goldmine, but your troop count is just so low early on.

 

[futurehermit]

True - but it is advertised as a worthless trait, not one that comes into its own later in the game.

Also strength of trait <> fun of trait. And a trait that enhances late game warring adds a lot of fun to me - late game warring can otherwise be a dull slog. With protective my vast collection of stone walls plus my ultra strong defenders means that modern wars are quick, brutal, decisive and fun. I have never seen warfare where four civs in succession capitulated in 5 turns or so.

Sure, I can agree with that

 

[InvisibleStalke]

Started another Saladin game. Nice cottage capital. Oracle metal casting, researched monarchy, then IW machinery.
After my first GP, I worked all my population, so no GP points, unfortunately.

Thankfully, one of the opponents was Alexander, and look! No archers until really late. Churchill declared war on Alexander, asked me to join a few turns later. I joined, Churchill makes peace the next turn. He sends a stack of 5 units against a city with 2 swordsmen and a crossbow (honestly, I can't make that many crossbows this early). I rush a city wall, just in case. I'm not going CG1 in favor of drill and shock.
I gradually whittle down his army near the border, but I keep losing highly promoted crossbows. Honestly, drills 2 and 3 aren't amazing. Much later, (I have construction and code of laws), I finally take 1 freaking city. I try to take a second city, he has longbows, way after all the other AI. My last attack used 2 suicide cats, but my crossbows were still way below odds. Hannibal has declared war, but it's not a huge problem.

Lessons: drill doesn't trump equal numbers of combat promotion. Maybe it's because my second city was a desert goldmine, but your troop count is just so low early on.

Sounds bad luck - a CG1Drill2 crossbow on defense behind a wall should be pretty tough for the AI to kill - only knights would stand much of a chance.

On attack they aren't great city takers. I'm not really in favour of a crossbow or longbow rush unless you can get them while the AI still defends with archers. A feudalism slingshot off Oracle for example. Then they are devastating. But later once the AI has longbows, then a free drill 1 promotion doesn't suddenly make your archery units into city killers.

I like them at that point more for versatility. Having maybe a third of my stack as longbows/crossbows with the drill promotion means that once collateral damage is taken into account they are capable of easily killing the remaining wounded defenders (after maces have taken out the CG longbows) taking little damage in the process and being in a strong position to defend against counter attack.

Also used in that role they accumulate a lot of promotions. And promotions like cover and shock make them really good stack defenders and more versatile for attacking roles.

If you are in the position of having to use archery units for city attack (no strategic resources at all), then I would favor the cover promotion rather than drill 2. And expect to lose more than a few especially when attacking longbows on hills.