Liberalism

[Memphus]

So everyone knows the general direction over the next 7-8 turns is winning the liberalism race.


Cav think we have no chance at it, because we are maxed out . The truth is we are just warming up. That or they are playing dumb.

So firstly, Is Liberalism that important?

Yes, it really is. This has the effect of the Oracle, that changed the game for us then. this will now. Our is now the fastest, and we still havn't palace jumped yet or built an academy. So Getting Liberalism means we become Techs leaders in the game for the first time (about 6 turns after we get it)

How Close is the Chimera Team? (Kaz, Cav & MS)

Well recent intel suggests that Kaz is researching, and MS and Cav are saving gold. Which tells us that Kaz will research philo, and Education (using 1 or 2 GS bulbs to do it). Then Cav will deficit research with thier huge empire. Currently they have ~750 saved. Which means Lib is taking them 5-6 turns to research.

So every turn that Philo and Education don't fall this gets easier for us.

Kaz might be really smart and taken a page from our book where they have researched philo to within 1 bulb and are waiting to overflow into edu somehow.

Does this worry us?

Well we have simmed it out, and Krill will put the numbers down...but we are like I said above 7-8 turns away right now, and this is with minimal effort. We are 10 turns away if FC and CK don't support the research. (i.e. unit builds)

So how fast can we get? Well it is possible that we go from making our current 375 a turn to well over 500

Options to speed it up are:
1. Go to Golden Age
2. Run Scientists everywhere and starve
3. Research compass and bulb Liberalism (this is very backdoor)

If we really pushed it we coudl get Liberalism in 3 turns. I.E. T125. Now that is a little ...and woudl cripple our empire pretty hard, but it is possible.

So basically at this point we have to react to how Cav & Kaz play, but the optiosn are there.

How far do we want to go to Get Lib?

 

[Mojoqmeyvam]

If we really had to push it, what would a Liberalism T125 entail? Since both sides are pushing for Lib, it's like a 3000 base beaker swing from Nationalism for us instead of them. So "anything that costs less than that" is fine.

Golden Age (even if it means delaying the Academy, and/or losing the +50% MoM bonus) is well worth it.
I'm hesitant to run massive scientists and lose pop from starvation.
Compass -> Liberalism: Liberalism is easily a 1GS bulb. I'd rather GA than Liberalism, but if this is what it takes, then go for it.
Is a GA worth more than the 1000-1100 base beakers or so that we save by bulbing liberalism? My semi-educated guess is yes.

 

[Krill]

We'd use the artist from Music for the golden age, so we wouldn't be wasting any scientists yet for that.

We wouldn't be losing population for the majority of the cities. We'd be using stored food to support scientists during the critical teching phase, and then once food as run out go back to working the minor food tiles (major food tiles are always worked).

The possible exception to that is OO, where we could have to starve the city to get teh GS out in time, but losing 2 pop points for lib isn't exactly a high cost. I'm currently looking at IS as a possible source of a probably GS after OO. It's easily capable of 60gpp/turn in a golden age. This is mainly if Saturn can't or won't push out their GS asap to bulb philo and we have to do the heavy lifting ourselves.


All in all, I'm just waiting for Philo to fall and then we can make a more justified decision. If it and edu don't fall for the next 2 turns then we have a good chance of getting it without doing anything fancy. If philo falls next turn, then we might have to forget about the MoM for at least the first golden age and really push.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

I'm actually ok with not getting liberalism, as long as we make sure that kaz doesn't get a large advantage from it.

I'm fairly positive that Kaz will beeline education - being philosophical & getting unis has to be a high priority for them.

 

[azzaman333]

What are we intending to bulb should we get Lib?

I don't think it's worth crippling ourselves to get it, but we shouldn't make it easy for Chimera.

 

[Krill]

Philo just fell to Kaz, and a new GS has just been born. Need to tread carefully...

 

[AutomatedTeller]

we won't get liberalism, then. They'll bulb education and tech liberalism.

We also need to figure out if we want christianity or islam.

 

[Krill]

Basically, need a vote before we play our turn, whether we enter a golden age using the artist or not. If we don't, we are possibly writing off any chances of getting Lib, if Kaz bulb edu next turn. Cav can probably get Lib in 4 if they play smart and bend their will, so we need to research Lib by t129.

It is currently t124. We use the artist for the golden age

We can squeeze the GS out of OO by eot t125. We adjust IS to run max scientists, and get a great person eot t127, with greater than 60% odds on a GS. I've asked Plako to starve their cap so we can get philo from them t128 at the latest.

We research edu for 1 more turn turns, then research compass t125 and t126, overflowing into edu on t127 and finishing it. t127 Saturn bulb philo, t128 gift it to us, and we bulb Lib with a GS, and complete lib t128.

For Cav to beat us they, recieve philo t125, and Kaz double bulb edu t125. Cav recieve edu t126, and start research. For Cav to beat us to Lib, they need to research Lib in 2 turns, ie, they need 875 base beakers/turn.

 

[Mojoqmeyvam]

I vote "Go for it."

 

[Krill]

Oh, AT, we can get Lib if we want it, unless Cav do a really nice little bit of tactical gaming. They'd need to have a scientist from Kaz, and education researched to within 1 bulb. Then they bulb it with the gifted GS, and start onto Lib this turn, meaning they would have 4 turns to get Lib in, which is an average of 436 base bpt. Which is, I think the absolute limit of what Cav can do.

I think we can get Lib if we don't mind the cost. And even then, the cost isn't horrendous, we aren't going to be starving out cities down, just...using up a little bit of the stored food. We'd also have the shelve plans for the MoM, if we wanted to risk a great person from IS (GS makes an academy in JD, GE can be saved for OU or used on taj if we then go back for MoM, or a GM could be used on a trade mission).

 

[IamJohn]

If you think it's worth it, I say go for it. What are we going to get with liberalism however?

 

[Krill]

Nationalism. Or we could just take Monotheism. I'm not really that bothered...I just want to stop Cav from sandbagging the tech.

 

[Krill]

A little maths working on whether we can do this without a golden age. I'm not certain, and it could hurt us a little, but no starvation would occur. And if we revolted to Nationalism during a golden age later on using the MoM, Kaz don;t have a hope in hell of attacking us.

OK, listen to this. We need to average 505 base bpt over the next 4 turns to get Lib by t128. If Kaz do double bulb next turn, and gift to Cav, we can average slightly less and still get it, basically averaging 485 bpt over the 3 turns we do edu. We still need 500 bpt on the turn we do compass though.

I'll see what I can do, but I think we can just get those figures without a golden age or using IS...and if Kaz don't double bulb...we don't need edu quite so fast. We still get teh GS out of OO in 4 turns without the GA, so it would eot t127, in time for a lib bulb.

We might be able to just squeak through here...

 

[Ronnie1]

I vote to NOT do anything TOO crazy.....

Did I say that out loud?

If we can pull it off, SWEET!

I would wait on the GA if possible, to see if they double bulb, if I understand all the intricacies correctly.

 

[Krill]

This is what Memphus wants to do:

Play this turn normally, and dare Kaz to double bulb.

If they do, then we use the golden age next turn, up our bpt to 550 base (which is insane, but doable), finish compass in 1 or keep research on edu, depending on need for beakers or wanting to hide that we are slinging Lib, and still get both by t127. Get philo from Saturn t128, bulb Lib, finish it and take Nationalism.

If they don't, then we dare them again, but keep research on edu. And we dare them again. And again. Without any bulbs we can get

 

[regoarrarr]

I vote we do whatever we can, and the crazier the better! I mean after all we are the team of the 1 turn Oracle - we have a reputation to uphold!!

 

[AutomatedTeller]

I'm fine with that.

 

[azzaman333]

Whatever it takes to (reasonably) assure that we deny our rivals 3000 free beakers.

 

[Krill]

Well, Cav have slowed down, and Rusten/Unconquered Sun have looked at the game a lot since we ended turn. Probably a little unnerved by the fact that we currently have a GNP of 430ish, compared to the next highest of 290. It'll probably shock them even more if we up it to over 600 next turn.

 

[Krill]

Kaz have Education. They researched it this turn. It was not finished on a bulb and then Lib researched, but we can't rule out that it was bulbed to within 1 beaker and then research overflowed into Lib.

I'd like to suggest that we temporarily slow construction of the MoM, and push a great person out of IS during the golden age. Hope it is a GS...We can get it in 4 turns, eot t128