Libraries or Military

[Globex]

I am playing on my first regent map and I have run into a problem. Everything started out well, I had bonus floodplains in my capital and I expanded quickly. I found India and after I completed building my core cities, I started to build an army of swordsmen and catapults to crush India and pop my Forbidden Palace city on top of the ruins of Delhi.

Then I discovered that I was stuck on the island with India with a single coastal tile preventing me from reaching the other landmass. I began researching map-making to contact the other CIVs and continued to build my army.

Before I completed my army, Russia popped a city on my continent and I discovered that I was way behind in techs. I bought all of the techs and contacts Russia had and managed to catch up. I noticed from the Maps I bought that the AI nations had a lot more territory than me and could probably out research me.

I decided that my army was taking too long to build and switched my cities from building catapults and swordsmen to libraries and aqueducts. I sent my incomplete army over to India to wipe them out but then I noticed that my core would develop faster if I used the swordsmen for military police so I wouldn't have to build temples and cathedrals.

Also, if I did manage to get a leader and build my second capital, I would have to have my core cities build settlers to create my second core which would hurt the population of my empire and slow down my research.

One end of my empire borders the ocean so I cant expand in that direction and there is a stretch of desert bordering the other side of my empire which is separating me from India so it would be useless to construct my Forbidden in one of my core cities. I do not have many core cities and if I do not build my second core, the AI will get ahead of me in the long run.

If I end the war and focus on developing my core, then I will lose out on territory and a potential advantage over the AI. However, If I continue the war and switch the focus in my core cities back to expansion, then the AI will pull ahead of me in techs.

What should I do? Continue to build libraries and develop my core or focus on conquest and expansion?

 

[Quintillus]

I'd say Libraries. With a healthy economy, it's not hard to be slightly ahead of the AI scientifically on Regent. They key, of course, is a healthy economy - i.e., well devloped cities - libraries, marketplaces, aqueducts. You'll eventually have to invade the other continent - unless a cultural or diplomatic victory looks feasable - and that won't be fun if you're behind on tech. It sounds like you've already got India in a pretty bad situation, so you might as well ease up on them for awhile and built a bunch of libraries so you can compete scientifically with the rest of the world.

 

[Aabraxan]

. . . . Then I discovered that I was stuck on the island with India with a single coastal tile preventing me from reaching the other landmass. I began researching map-making to contact the other CIVs and continued to build my army. . . . .

How large is the island? Is there still room to expand or have you filled it?

Before I completed my army, Russia popped a city on my continent and I discovered that I was way behind in techs. I bought all of the techs and contacts Russia had and managed to catch up. I noticed from the Maps I bought that the AI nations had a lot more territory than me and could probably out research me.

Don't let the size of AI nations scare you. Chances are that there's a lot of undeveloped space there. Doesn't mean they research any faster. You'd have a lot of territory, too, if you spaced your cities CxxxxxxxxxC.

I decided that my army was taking too long to build and switched my cities from building catapults and swordsmen to libraries and aqueducts.

Unless you'd expanded to fill the available space and your cites were in need of aques (size 6 with extra food), I'm not sure that I would have gone with aques. Libraries, . . . maybe. Sounds like you're building them earlier than I usually do, but I might build them earlier if I were stuck on and island and had already filled all available space. (Then again, I've been known to launch a naval invasion with galleys).

I sent my incomplete army over to India to wipe them out but then I noticed that my core would develop faster if I used the swordsmen for military police so I wouldn't have to build temples and cathedrals.

Exactly what government are you in? Obviously one that uses MPs, so that rules out Republic.

Also, if I did manage to get a leader and build my second capital, . . . .

And what version? The "second capital" comment leads me to believe that it may not be Conquests and there are some significant differences between versions on this point.

. . . . I would have to have my core cities build settlers to create my second core which would hurt the population of my empire and slow down my research.

But settlers are like the gift that keeps on giving. Assuming that you still have some room to expand, they will not slow your research down. They will create more towns, more commerce, more beakers, more workers, more cats, more more.

One end of my empire borders the ocean so I cant expand in that direction and there is a stretch of desert bordering the other side of my empire which is separating me from India so it would be useless to construct my Forbidden in one of my core cities. I do not have many core cities and if I do not build my second core, the AI will get ahead of me in the long run.

Ah, so there is some room to expand, even if it's not very good land. How's India's land looking? Is it worth coveting?

If I end the war and focus on developing my core, then I will lose out on territory and a potential advantage over the AI. However, If I continue the war and switch the focus in my core cities back to expansion, then the AI will pull ahead of me in techs.

What should I do? Continue to build libraries and develop my core or focus on conquest and expansion?

I like libraries, but my gut says expand, even if it has to be by force of arms. Do a little crafty trading, and get a few two-fers. Sounds like you were already able to trade your way back into the tech race once.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

First I'll have to make a few assumptions about your game because you left a bit of important info out. I assume you are not scientific, you are still in the ancient age, and you are using Vanilla/PTW.

You are actually in not such a bad situation there. And the question is not at all libraries or swordmen. You won't need either much:

Libraries should be delegated for now. 80 shields is a bit taxing on a developing empire.

A better short-term investment into science is IMO pointy-stick research. If you kill that Russian town they plopped down on your continent you might easily be in a position to get an AA tech or two for peace from them as soon as they are willing to talk and have techs you don't. And don't worry, there is nothing much that you would have to fear from an AI on another continent.

Apart from that, simply do what always should be done. Research into the tree and techs that the AI does not like to research in order to get monopoly techs. Which you then trade around.

As for the military, you won't need that much either. After all you share your continent with only one other civ (that Russian city doesn't count).

That means firstly you will only have one front and with that only one direction from which you have to expect serious threats. If you manage to obliterate the "standing attack force" of your opponent, there is nothing much of a threat coming from their direction either.

Secondly, should you war India it will probably not even be necessary to replenish your casualties much. As long as your opponent dwindles away faster than your forces do, you are fine. The AI's on the other continent are not much of a concern as the AI s***s at warfare across water.

 

[Globex]

How large is the island? Is there still room to expand or have you filled it?

I don't have access to the game right now but from what I remember, the continent that most of the AI were on was at least twice the size the island I share with India. I am playing on a large map with the highest percentage of water and my island is about 1/3-1/4 of the land available.

Unless you'd expanded to fill the available space and your cites were in need of aques (size 6 with extra food), I'm not sure that I would have gone with aques. Libraries, . . . maybe. Sounds like you're building them earlier than I usually do, but I might build them earlier if I were stuck on and island and had already filled all available space. (Then again, I've been known to launch a naval invasion with galleys).

I'm building aqueducts because:
aqueducts = more people = more gold = more research
I am also building temples, cathedrals, and military police to keep my citizens content and harbors in coastal cities that need the extra food to grow.

Exactly what government are you in? Obviously one that uses MPs, so that rules out Republic.

Monarchy

And what version? The "second capital" comment leads me to believe that it may not be Conquests and there are some significant differences between versions on this point.

Vanilla CIV III

Ah, so there is some room to expand, even if it's not very good land. How's India's land looking? Is it worth coveting?

India is mostly plains with some coastal grasslands in the south with a few hills. Delhi is located next to a lake and there are some luxuries. If I remember correctly, there is enough good land to build a complete first ring and a partial second ring if I build my Forbidden palace where Delhi is located.

I like libraries, but my gut says expand, even if it has to be by force of arms. Do a little crafty trading, and get a few two-fers. Sounds like you were already able to trade your way back into the tech race once.

I am already caught up with the AI but I want to get ahead of them. I am thinking about pitting the AI on the other continent against each other through military alliances so they will be tangled up in messy wars while I am free to develop and research.

 

[rysingsun]

remember too that every ai civ eliminated or significantly reduced in size is one more ai that will no longer be trading techs with the other ais. that all by itself slows down their combined tech pace quite a bit. i think this says a lot about why warmongers don't seem to miss their libraries much.

 

[AutomatedTeller]

Who are you, btw? If you are scientific, then the libs make more sense.

 

[PaperBeetle]

If you have some core towns on rivers (i.e >6 citizens, good shield output, good commerce output) then these places are probably worth a library. If you need extra happiness to grow these towns, try to trick the overseas civs into declaring war on you. And the Forbidden Palace is always worth building, just because it reduces empire-wide corruption, wherever it is built. Usually you can get it done in your core before you have popped a leader. Then if you do get a leader, he can move the palace instead of rushing FP, and you still get the benefit of two cores.
As for India, it doesn't sound like you have much to gain by leaving them in the game. If you have the troops to kill them, do so. You would dishonour your armies by merely using them as military police.

 

[Red Horse]

pointy-stick research.

 

[RickFGS]

Military if in despotism and off golden age, libraries and infrastructure built after golden age kicks in or you just came out of anarchy - monarchy/rep.

 

[Globex]

First I'll have to make a few assumptions about your game because you left a bit of important info out. I assume you are not scientific, you are still in the ancient age, and you are using Vanilla/PTW.

I am playing with China, in the middle age on Vanilla.

You are actually in not such a bad situation there. And the question is not at all libraries or swordmen. You won't need either much:

The question is more like development or expansion. I was in a rush when I posted this thread and kind of mis-titled it.

Libraries should be delegated for now. 80 shields is a bit taxing on a developing empire.

What should I build instead of libraries?

 

[Aabraxan]

What should I build instead of libraries?

Archers, swords, and cats.

 

[Lord Emsworth]

I am playing with China, in the middle age on Vanilla.

The question is more like development or expansion. I was in a rush when I posted this thread and kind of mis-titled it.

What should I build instead of libraries?

I was under the impression that you were still in the AA. Post a save, I'll tell you what I would do.

 

[Globex]

Archers, swords, and cats.

I have sent about 10 swordsmen and 10 catapults to invade India and have a bunch of swords in my core doing MP duty. Do you think I should build more or focus on expanding?

I was under the impression that you were still in the AA. Post a save, I'll tell you what I would do.

V Save

 

[Aabraxan]

I have sent about 10 swordsmen and 10 catapults to invade India and have a bunch of swords in my core doing MP duty. Do you think I should build more or focus on expanding?

Do not stop building military units until the Indian War is over. You need reinforcements headed towards the front lines, especially if the RNG takes a "bad hop."

 

[Lord Emsworth]

I have sent about 10 swordsmen and 10 catapults to invade India and have a bunch of swords in my core doing MP duty. Do you think I should build more or focus on expanding?



V Save

First things first, your Civ version does not appear to be patched properly. I can tell that by the fact that when I load your save I can see things on the map that I normally should not be able to see at all, so for example I can see what kind of top defender Poitiers has, when that should be hidden from me by the fog of war.

Anyway, the patches can be downloaded from here: http://www.civfanatics.com/civ3/patches/
1.29f for Win and 1.29beta2 for Mac.

However, you might actually want to wait until after you have completed your current game with applying the patches, else you're quite likely to encounter the same kind of "problem" that I do, i.e. buggy fog of war.


And Check the option "Always wait at the end of the turn" in the preferences! With the game automatically ending the turn when it thinks you might be finished, you won't get anywhere.

------------

Militarily it really looks good. IMO India is done for. The units that you have poised against Ghandi all by themselves should easily be enough to take the 3 nothernmost of his cities. First divide your stack and let one half take Bangalore and let the other half take Calcutta. Then reunite and have them take Delhi. While you do that, bring in those 8 (?) swords that you currently use in your core on MP duty. When they arrive, mop the remaining 5 southernmost cities.

Do not raze. Keep what you capture. Captured cities will stop posing a flip risk once India is out of the game.

It is not necessary at all to build any more reinforcements. What you have is plenty, IF your goal is to detroy the Indians and apart from that call it quits on the *big* military campaigns.

What you really need is one or two additional cities in your core.

The spot 1 tile NW of Poitiers looks like a good spot for that. A city there would be on the coast, could work one of the FP-wheats south of Beijing and with that be able to work some of the desert tiles. It would not be a super-city, but decent anyway. Of course Poitiers would have to go. (I would suggest to have 2 or 3 of the MP swords in your core make a short detour over the ruins of Poitiers on their way towards Delhi)

Another good spot is on the hill 1 tile NE of the deer which is currently not even within range of any of the cities to be worked. A city there can work the deer, some coast, some plains and some of the hillsmountains. As the first spot that I suggested, it won't be superb, but decent at least.

That would make your primary home core, the way I would build, consist of the two new cities, Beijing and those cities that you dubbed Alpha Ring X. Those are the ones you need to focus on in terms of development. Here you can build stuff like libraries, ducts, markets etc. Also get them up to size quickly; join workers, irrigate terrain, work food rich tiles first. Each of them should be able to reach a decent town size, 10-12. (You do not need any more than that for the whole game.)

For the rest of your cities, (Beta Ring X, and the others) use them primarily to build food units like workers and settlers when possible. Later on you can sort out which of them turn out to be semi-uncorrupt and develop them a little too.

If you manage to get another leader, build your FP in Dehli (that is what you want to do anyway.) There is land another 6-7 good or at least decent towns around the current Indian capital. Treat this second core the same way as your core, i.e. develop it quickly.

Also get out of Monarchy and into the Republic ASAP.

Bottom line: Develop AND expand AND continue the war against India. The trick is to use the appropriate part of your empire for each of these tasks.

 

[Globex]

I have a few more questions:

When exactly should I start the revolt and switch to Republic? I haven't done it yet because I wanted to develop my core more before descending into anarchy.

Is there a way to tell the difference between an elite unit that has produced a leader and an elite unit that hasn't? I have just gotten my third leader and I want to make sure I use the swordsmen that made those leaders as little as possible to maximize my chances of getting another leader.

Should I research towards Invention or Education and Banking? Getting Invention would allow me to rush Leo's with my leader and allow me a chance to get more leaders in the war against India. Education and Banking would allow me to produce more gold and beakers in my core.

 

[Aabraxan]

When exactly should I start the revolt and switch to Republic? I haven't done it yet because I wanted to develop my core more before descending into anarchy.

As soon as it won't cripple you economically to do so. Because the despo penalty affects food, gold and shields, getting out of despo is an all-around help. If you have CivAssist II (and a PC, from what I've been hearing lately), you can go to the "Economy" tab and see what your economy will look like under different governments without having to actually make the switch.

Is there a way to tell the difference between an elite unit that has produced a leader and an elite unit that hasn't? I have just gotten my third leader and I want to make sure I use the swordsmen that made those leaders as little as possible to maximize my chances of getting another leader.

Yes. A units that has already produced a leader should be noted as "Elite* unit."

 

[Lord Emsworth]

I have a few more questions:

When exactly should I start the revolt and switch to Republic? I haven't done it yet because I wanted to develop my core more before descending into anarchy.

Now.

Is there a way to tell the difference between an elite unit that has produced a leader and an elite unit that hasn't? I have just gotten my third leader and I want to make sure I use the swordsmen that made those leaders as little as possible to maximize my chances of getting another leader.

You will need to apply the latest patch, then it will work as Aabraxan said. What also will come is stack movement of like units (select one and hit 'j') and the ability of upgrading to your UU (i.e. Warrior to Immortal, Horseman to Rider etc)

Should I research towards Invention or Education and Banking? Getting Invention would allow me to rush Leo's with my leader and allow me a chance to get more leaders in the war against India. Education and Banking would allow me to produce more gold and beakers in my core.

I would suggest you research the upper brach. And maybe opt for Music Theory and use your leader on JS Bach's, which is definitely the strongest happyness wonder. With two only luxuries on your continent those two content faces per city will be worth quite something, and help you save a lot of money. (If you get MusicTheory try to trade it away just before you complete JS Bach's - afterwards the tech would be completely devalued)

 

[JDAllison]

I'd say libraries. They increase your culture, and they increase the science rate, which means that you can build a more advanced military in the long run. I'd rather wait a few turns and get something better than the AI than waste a bunch of shields on obsolescent units that may or may not defeat the enemy. Sometimes, you have no choice. Live for the times when you do.