Literature before Paper?

[Acceptable_Loss]

It dawned on me in the middle of a Civ 4 game that you seem to get paper pretty late in the middle ages. Which doesn't really make sense seeing as the ancient egyptians had paper. It also seems funny that the quote for paper is "I cannot live without books", that sounds like a quote for literature to me. It seems to me that the names of the literature and paper tech should be switched. What do the rest of you think?


P.S. If someone else has already posted this then I am sorry, I did a quick search and didn't find anything.

 

[King Flevance]

They used rock slates before paper. Didn't you ever watch the Flintstones?

 

[Acceptable_Loss]

yeah, but you don't fill a library with books written on stone tablets.
The writing and alphabet tech represent the time period in which stone tablets would have been used.

 

[korsteve]

paper is a prereq for the printing press, and without literature you'd have a whole lot of paper with nothing to write on it.

 

[Acceptable_Loss]

well here's my question then. In human history which came first?
Did we have literature written on stone tablets or whatever for centuries before paper was created?
or did we create paper for the writing that we did and then the paper allowed for more words to be easily written which led to literature?

 

[King Flevance]

Actually, I believe they did used to use animal skin as paper to write on before the actual production of paper. The flintone thing was more of a joke.
Was mostly waiting to see what someone else said first.

 

[Alphawolf]

It dawned on me in the middle of a Civ 4 game that you seem to get paper pretty late in the middle ages. Which doesn't really make sense seeing as the ancient egyptians had paper. It also seems funny that the quote for paper is "I cannot live without books", that sounds like a quote for literature to me. It seems to me that the names of the literature and paper tech should be switched. What do the rest of you think?

This should teach you to bring stuff like this up where history majors (civ2 started me on history) lurk. Paper as we know it today comes from wood pulp and is partially based on the rag paper of the renaissance, the first real paper. The Egyptians had papyrus not paper and it would be impossible to print on papyrus, it being too delicate. During the medieval period writing was done on sheep skin vellum, which was hideously expensive think $50-$75 per sheet or roll. Anything pre-paper is sometimes referred to as parchment to distinguish it from paper. If you want more detail PM me.

-the Wolf

 

[Acceptable_Loss]

Actually, I believe they did used to use animal skin as paper to write on before the actual production of paper. The flintone thing was more of a joke.
Was mostly waiting to see what someone else said first.

I guess animal skin makes sense. but don't you think it's a little strange that you don't research paper until the late middle ages? It seems it should be much earlier...

 

[jayeffaar]

paper is a prereq for the printing press, and without literature you'd have a whole lot of paper with nothing to write on it.

Hmmm... that logic worked to justify writing before alphabet ("what would they need an alphabet for, if it wasn't for writing?") but I'm not buying it here. You can definitely have basic writing and paper to write on before litterature, which would imply sophisticated writing skills.

 

[Acceptable_Loss]

This should teach you to bring stuff like this up where history majors (civ2 started me on history) lurk. Paper as we know it today comes from wood pulp and is partially based on the rag paper of the renaissance, the first real paper. The Egyptians had papyrus not paper and it would be impossible to print on papyrus, it being too delicate. During the medieval period writing was done on sheep skin vellum, which was hideously expensive think $50-$75 per sheet or roll. Anything pre-paper is sometimes referred to as parchment to distinguish it from paper. If you want more detail PM me.

-the Wolf

Thanks for the history lesson... so in your mind do you think paper is where it should be on the tech tree?

Something else to consider is that paper allows for map trading... so are you telling me that we couldn't trade maps until we had sophiticated paper of the late middle ages/renaissance?

 

[majk-iii]

Yes... he says so in the quote:

"Paper as we know it today comes from wood pulp and is partially based on the rag paper of the renaissance, the first real paper."

renaissance... as in after the middle ages.

 

[Alphawolf]

Thanks for the history lesson... so in your mind do you think paper is where it should be on the tech tree?

You're welcome and Yes I do believe it's in the right place, although I don't understand Theology leading to it, like most thing after Rome and before the modern period (the early modern begins in 1600's I don't know why) it came from China so Civil Service (bureaucracy they loved their notes almost as much as the IRS) should be enough.

-the Wolf

 

[majk-iii]

...And alphabets were a system to improve on already existing writing...
Otherwise why would you need an alphabet in the first place.

Alphabets have symbols that represents SOUND, instead of words or local concepts... that are mostly represented by the symbols of the so called "pictographic" pre-alphabet systems of writing.
Such as the egyptian hieroglyphs and more.

Pardon my spelling btw.

 

[King Flevance]

I will agree for sure the tech tree seems distasteful to me. Not to mention shrunk and unbalanced. It could definetly use a re-vamp.
Writing before Alphabet makes since and is true.
Literature before paper while true, it can be researched the opposite way I believe. It just ties up your research early to do so. Which would explain a culture with more sophisticated literature, if you want to look at it that way.
I am all up for a revision of the tech tree.

 

[Alphawolf]

Something else to consider is that paper allows for map trading... so are you telling me that we couldn't trade maps until we had sophiticated paper of the late middle ages/renaissance?

No, in the real world vellum or papyrus would be fine. The idea of cartography just didn't start until the late medieval/renaissance, which is what I think Fraxis was after. Sorry for the two posts you edited after I started on the last one.

-the Wolf

 

[Alphawolf]

I am all up for a revision of the tech tree.

I started mapping one out to be a bit more historically accurate and still fun to play. I'll post it when I'm done, look for it after Thanksgiving.

-the Wolf

 

[King Flevance]

I started mapping one out to be a bit more historically accurate and still fun to play. I'll post it when I'm done, look for it after Thanksgiving.

-the Wolf

Cool thanks wolf. I sure will.