Load transfer weirdness

[Linad]

I move an empty carrier over my sub[with 8 nukes] and another one of my Carrier[eight planes][all on the same square] my empty Carrier steals the 8 planes from the other Carrier and also steals the 8 nukes from the sub, so now I have 8 planes and 8 nukes in my Carrier. What happened?[i haven't messed up the program files.]

 

[dylandlr]

That seems to be a quirk in the program. It really annoys me - I always have to pay special attention to where my missiles are, and really plan my sub and carrier routes.

I have no actual technical knowledge as to the cause, but I woold guess that it is likely in the 000000000000 aspect for unit attributes, regarding # of missile units that can be transported by a carrier or sub in the rules.txt.

In fact, since transports seem never to convoy the specific units I select when they intercept each other, I think I'll take a look at this and see if I can modify my own rules.txt file.

......and, having done so...... I can only put the transfer of missiles to the carrier's ability to carry air-mobile units. Nor can I alter my transport problem.

Not an AI stupidity, but a quirk nonetheless.

 

[funxus]

All the non-sleeping units will follow the next ship that moves out of the square. So, if you don't wake them, there shouldn't be any problem I think.

 

[The Person]

Using carriers? It's years ago since last time I used any of those. But then there's also been a few years since I last time waged a full-scale war in CivII.

 

[Mercator]

Carriers/transports or other carrying units don't keep track of which units exactly are on board.

It's as funxus says, the first unit to move out of a square will simply take along as many units as it can carry. A carrier can carry 20 air units, so it snatched away all planes and missiles along with it.

There's nothing you can do about it, except by keeping your carriers on separate squares.

 

[ElephantU]

You can "keep" units on transports by making sure they are "Sleeping" before entering a tile with other transports, but once you "wake" them up they will leave with the next transport that has any space on it.

 

[funxus]

And it's the opposite if the square is in a city, then all the sleeping ones will follow the next ship.

 

[ElephantU]

Sleeping units automatically wake up when a ship enters a city, both those on the ship as well as those in the city. You then must put the ones you want to stay aboard back to sleep before the ship leaves the city.

 

[TimTheEnchanter]

Actually with transports I don't think it's quite that simple. Your units are by default sleeping when they travel on the ships. If you wake up some of the units from either or both ships, those units will jump onto the next ship that leaves. This is standard "ship chain" behavior. But if you have two shipfuls of units transported to the same square and wake all of them up, then only put some of the units back to sleep, I believe the ones you just put to sleep will get on the next boat. I've used this technique a few times to move units from the back of a partial ship chain up to the front of the line.

 

[Linad]

I thought that carriers could only hold 8 air units not 20

 

[dylandlr]

Originally posted by TimTheEnchanter
Actually with transports I don't think it's quite that simple. Your units are by default sleeping when they travel on the ships. If you wake up some of the units from either or both ships, those units will jump onto the next ship that leaves. This is standard "ship chain" behavior. But if you have two shipfuls of units transported to the same square and wake all of them up, then only put some of the units back to sleep, I believe the ones you just put to sleep will get on the next boat. I've used this technique a few times to move units from the back of a partial ship chain up to the front of the line.

My experience has been inconclusive: Usually most of the now-sleeping units go with the transport. Note the weasel words: [usually, most] I have no sure-fire method for this type of transport/convoy with land units. However, my experience with subs/carriers reinforces the accuracy of a this method with the "ship-chain" notion for airborne units.

Having said this, I play at deity level - nothing seems certain here (I've seen 5 instead of 4 barbs - plus a leader - on a caravel at this level.)

Regarding the planes on the carriers: do NOT cross paths. There is simply no way to ensure that the undesired transfer will not occur. I usually cross-home my fighters and bombers and use subs to move missiles long distances.

Because inside every _____ is a _____ waiting to get out.

 

[dylandlr]

Originally posted by TimTheEnchanter
Actually with transports I don't think it's quite that simple. Your units are by default sleeping when they travel on the ships. If you wake up some of the units from either or both ships, those units will jump onto the next ship that leaves. This is standard "ship chain" behavior. But if you have two shipfuls of units transported to the same square and wake all of them up, then only put some of the units back to sleep, I believe the ones you just put to sleep will get on the next boat. I've used this technique a few times to move units from the back of a partial ship chain up to the front of the line.

OOOps - this is ALWAYS the case with units on land (in a city) and I frequently do this - selsect which units load the next transport. Nonetheless, this does not apply with units at sea, where the computer takes units from one ship onto another, apparently by the attack/defense value. In this cae, I prepare a two-step assault - 1. tranfer required units from transport to transport (and use/waste the turn's move) and 2. Attack!!!

)

 

[jadelicia]

I don't know if any of you have played Colonization, but that's another game by Sid Meier. When you have units aboard a ship, it doesn't matter whether they're asleep or not. They go with the first ship that moves from square no matter what. I found this to be terribly annoying since I'd have ships carrying units one way and other ships carrying other specific units another way. I'd have them set on "Go" mode (the ships in Colonization aren't quite as dumb as the ones in Civ in that they don't take "long ways around"). ANYWAY, I was quite surprised (nicely surprised) when upon playing Civ II that transports didn't act the same way with their units, in that they remembered and kept their own. I thought it was the same rule as in Col. I've never noticed that property about Carriers though.

 

[Prof. Garfield]

I play Colonization too, and the ships don't take the long way because there is no long way. The Colonization map is "flat," so the ships won't go around the world to get to your spot, but they will sometimes folow the coastline, depending on where you want to get to in relation of the place that the boat is at. Incidentaly, my comp sometimes freezes when the Colonopedia comes up, is there any way to stop the Colonopidia from apearing when you get a Founding Father?

 

[TimTheEnchanter]

Originally posted by dylandlr
OOOps - this is ALWAYS the case with units on land (in a city) and I frequently do this - selsect which units load the next transport. Nonetheless, this does not apply with units at sea, where the computer takes units from one ship onto another, apparently by the attack/defense value. In this cae, I prepare a two-step assault - 1. tranfer required units from transport to transport (and use/waste the turn's move) and 2. Attack!!!
)

How does it "value' the att/def values? Are you sure? Because in the latest GOTM I had a 2 boat convoy and I seem to recall being able to "rearrange" it so that a camel (middle att/def) and a Knight (high att/def) went to the head of the line ahead of a Knight (high A/D) and Dip(low A/D). Maybe I did it differently somehow. I'd have to sit down and do some serious testing, and I don't really have the time for that right now. In case I do set aside some time in the near future what would be the test conditions? We would need combinations of the following conditions:

In cities-we know only sleepers get on the boat, so the question is...When more than a boatful are sleeping, who is taken?
-Different orders of being "put to sleep"
-Different Att/def/move combinations
-Military and non-mil units

At sea- here's the tough part
We know units won't change ships unless they are woken up.
-Wake up before new ship arrives vs. after ship arrives
-More than 1 shipful, less than 1 shipful
-wake up several, put some to sleep
-put none back to sleep
-put all to sleep
-Different orders of being awakened
-Different orders of being "put to sleep"
-Different Att/def/move combinations
-Military and non-mil units

did I miss anything?

 

[Mercator]

I think I already know how the right units are taken along.

In the savegame each unit has two values that tell it which units are right above and below it in the stack. A new transport (with units) entering a square will arrive on top. So, presumably, you could use the stack order to determine which unit goes on which ship. A ship will carry all the units directly below it, up till either the ship is full, or the next transport ship is encountered in the stack... Or something like that.

When you activate a unit, it moves to the top of the stack, which then makes it available to other ships.

I'm not entirely sure about this, but your test conditions should be able to clear this up... And possibly combined with a little hex-editing. Making different saves in between to verify the stack order in the savegame. But I don't know if that's strictly necessary.

 

[dylandlr]

I tried the various methods. If there are fewer than eight units they all go with the transport. If more, it seems to be the highest a/d rating regardless of the sleep/wake order.

I used armor and a variety of obsolete units.

(This is the first time I have tried to upload a file - let's see......)

 

[jadelicia]

Originally posted by Prof. Garfield
I play Colonization too, and the ships don't take the long way because there is no long way. The Colonization map is "flat," so the ships won't go around the world to get to your spot, but they will sometimes folow the coastline, depending on where you want to get to in relation of the place that the boat is at. Incidentaly, my comp sometimes freezes when the Colonopedia comes up, is there any way to stop the Colonopidia from apearing when you get a Founding Father?

I don't know...I haven't been on Colonization for a while. Do you have any idea why your computer might freeze at this point in time? Maybe check the graphics options for ways to shut off certain things, but I really doubt its possible to get rid of the Colonopedia. Just save lots

 

[Prof. Garfield]

I do save very much, I have some trouble with the civolopedia, but not all the time, there were times when it worked fine, but other times where I need to disable civlopedia from advances in order to play... Who knows, it doesn't really mater, I know the stuff inside out, and the pedia works for scns...

 

[ElephantU]

Freezing during the Pedias would indicate a problem with video drivers. There should be two: your hardware video driver, from the board or PC manufacturer, and the Indeo drivers used by Civ to communicate with the video system. Check your board or PC web site for the most recent hardware drivers, then go to Cedric's site for the most recent Indeo drivers. Make sure you get the right one for the OS you are using.